<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m =
"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6002.19567" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE>@font-face {
font-family: ＭＳ ゴシック;
}
@font-face {
font-family: Cambria Math;
}
@font-face {
font-family: ＭＳ Ｐゴシック;
}
@font-face {
font-family: Calibri;
}
@font-face {
font-family: @ＭＳ ゴシック;
}
@font-face {
font-family: @ＭＳ Ｐゴシック;
}
@page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 99.25pt 30.0mm 30.0mm 30.0mm; }
P.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: "ＭＳ Ｐゴシック"
}
LI.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: "ＭＳ Ｐゴシック"
}
DIV.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: "ＭＳ Ｐゴシック"
}
A:link {
COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlink {
COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
A:visited {
COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {
COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
P {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0mm; COLOR: black; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0mm; FONT-FAMILY: "ＭＳ Ｐゴシック"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto
}
PRE {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0mm 0mm 0pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: "ＭＳ ゴシック"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML 書式付き (文字)"
}
SPAN.HTML {
COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: "Courier New"; mso-style-priority: 99; mso-style-link: "HTML 書式付き"; mso-style-name: "HTML 書式付き (文字)"
}
SPAN.20 {
COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Arial",sans-serif; mso-style-type: personal-reply
}
.MsoChpDefault {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only
}
DIV.WordSection1 {
page: WordSection1
}
</STYLE>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026">
<v:textbox inset="5.85pt,.7pt,5.85pt,.7pt" />
</o:shapedefaults></xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></HEAD>
<BODY lang=JA vLink=purple link=blue bgColor=white>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Colleagues,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is simply to register a dissenting opinion,
for similar reasons, with the last two notes, if nothing else to say that there
can be one:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. Regarding John C.'s view of the value of
Pierce, there can be no common ground. Scholastic, propositional logic is part
of the problem. His metaphysics has no ground in physics. Only Pierce's
intuitions, to which he gives less value, have some value for me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. Koichiro presents some good science, but it is
misapplied. Nothing tells us that information, or another complex natural
process, evolves according to the trajectories that he describes: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#1f497d>Any robust loop trajectory
appearing in biochemistry and biology must be either clockwise or
anti-clockwise, and by no means an undisciplined mix of the
two.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rather, like this discussion, such processes follow
follow a 'mix' but is by no means undisciplined, even if it is partly backwards
and forwards at the same time. Such scare words should not be used. <EM>Pace
</EM>John, I think what underlies both has been found in part, and it is the
linked movement of systems from actual to potential and <EM>vice versa.
</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What is missing from <EM>my</EM> picture, since
no-one seems to point to it, are the detailed values of the path from actuality
to potentiality, which themselves may go from maxima to minima, as discussed by
Michel Godron. Michel has left us . . .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=CXQ02365@nifty.com href="mailto:CXQ02365@nifty.com">Koichiro Matsuno</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 1:18 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Idealism and Materialism</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">On 6
Nov 2017 at 5:30AM, John Collier wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>In fact I would argue that the notion of
information as used in physics is empirically based just as it is in the
cognitive sciences. Our problem is to find what underlies both.</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">
Yes, there have already been serious attempts in this direction, though which
may not yet have received due attention from the folks interested in the issue
of information.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">
One example is the entropy production fluctuation theorem by Gavin Crooks
(1999). The agenda is on the distinction between states and events in
thermodynamics. An essence is seen in the uniqueness of thermodynamics allowing
for even the non-state or history-dependent variable such as heat. This
perspective is powerful enough to precipitate a dependable synthesis out of
integrating both the state and the process descriptions. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">
When a microscopic system of interest contacts a heat bath, its development
along an arbitrary trajectory of the state attributes of the system necessarily
accompanies the associated event of heat flow either to or from the bath. If the
trajectory is accompanied by the heat flow to the bath over any finite time
interval, it would be far more likely compared with the reversed trajectory
absorbing the same amount of heat flow from the bath. This has been a main
message from Crooks’ fluctuation theorem. One practical implication of the
theorem is that if the trajectory happens to constitute a loop, the likely loop
must be the one having the net positive heat flow to the bath. For the reversed
loop trajectory would have to come to accompany the same amount of heat flow
from the bath back into the inside of the system, and that would be far less
likely. Any robust loop trajectory appearing in biochemistry and biology must be
either clockwise or anti-clockwise, and by no means an undisciplined mix of the
two.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">
A lesson we could learn from this pedagogical example is that thermodynamics is
a naturalized tool for making macroscopic events out of the state attributes on
the microscopic level irrespectively of whether or not it may have already been
called informational. It is quite different from what statistical mechanics has
accomplished so far. Something called quantum thermodynamics is gaining its
momentum somewhere these days. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">
Koichiro Matsuno<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0mm; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0mm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0mm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif">
Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <B>On Behalf Of </B>John
Collier<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 6, 2017 5:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
fis@listas.unizar.es<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Idealism and
Materialism<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>Loet, I have no disagreement with this. at least in the
detailed summary you give. In fact I would argue that the notion of information
as used in physics is empirically based just as it is in the cognitive sciences.
Our problem is to find what underlies both.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>My mention of the Scholastics was to Pierce's version, not
the common interpretation due to a dep misunderstanding about what they were up
to. I recommend a serous study of Peirce on te issues of meaning and
metaphysics. He wa deeply indebted to their work iin
logic.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>Of course there may be no common ground, but the our project
is hopeless. Other things you have said on this group lead me to think it is not
a dead end of confused notions. In that case we are wasting our
time.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-US>John<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P></P><FONT face="MS PGothic"></FONT><FONT face="MS PGothic"></FONT>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Fis mailing
list<BR>Fis@listas.unizar.es<BR>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<BR></BODY></HTML>