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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=ZH-CN link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style='text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>Dear Krassimir and </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Colleagues</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>,</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>It has passed 70 years since Wiener’s <i>Cybernetics</i> and Shannon’s <i>Mathematical Theory of Communication</i>, and 20 years since this FIS forum found. During this period, there are innumerable researchers tried to find this "primary concept" of information but without success. Thing, knowledge, data, difference, perception, reflection, uncertainty, entropy, and so on. Therefore, I hope your "We need other primary concepts which will permit us to define information and to prove all consequences." won't arouse the enthusiasm trying to find it more, it is an endless task to such efforts. My opinion is that we had better turn our major attention to the new search such as the general principle that Pedro started several weeks ago, and theorem, axiom, etc. or other aspects about Information Science. Definition is not the only way to build a science. I agree with the view that Brenner regard Information Science as a pre-science, and only in this way we can slowly advance it into a normal-science, if possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>Once we can put forward some basic knowledge such as the form of principle, theorem, axiom, etc., we need to illustrate them at once. This will immediately involves what you say: “Informatics lacks of well established primary concepts. The concept of information couldn't be primary because it couldn't be illustrated directly by real examples." In fact, standing on the position of Unified Information Science, all the general principle, theorem, axiom, etc. are very difficult to be illustrated, but they are rather easy to get the effective illustration in the Branch Informatics. In order to implement this strategy, the initial principle, theorem, axiom, etc. should also be based on Branch Informatics rather than Unified Information Science at first.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>Xueshan<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal align=left style='text-align:left'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Krassimir Markov<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 5, 2017 9:07 PM<br><b>To:</b> Foundation of Information Science <fis@listas.unizar.es><br><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] Idealism and Materialism<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal align=left style='text-align:left'><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Dear Bruno and FIS Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Thank you very much for your useful remarks!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>This week I was ill and couldn</span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>’<span lang=EN-US>t work.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Hope, the next week will be better for work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Now I want only to paraphrase my post about Idealism and Materialism:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>The first is founded on believing that the Intelligent Creation exists.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>The second is founded on believing that the Intelligent Creation does not exist.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Both are kinds of religions because they could not prove their foundations by experiments and real examples.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>The scientific approach does not believe in anything in advance. The primary concepts have to be illustrated by series of real examples. After that the secondary concepts have to be defined and all propositions have to be proved.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Are the mathematicians materialists or idealists?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Of course neither the first nor the second!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Mathematics is an example of the scientific approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Informatics lacks of well established primary concepts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>The concept of information couldn</span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>’<span lang=EN-US>t be primary because it couldn</span>’<span lang=EN-US>t be illustrated directly by real examples.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>We need other primary concepts which will permit us to define information and to prove all consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Friendly greetings<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Krassimir<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>From: Bruno Marchal<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 12:30 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>To: Foundation of Information Science<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Dear Krassimir,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>On 31 Oct 2017, at 15:07, Krassimir Markov wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Dear FIS Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Many years ago, in 2011, I had written a special remark about <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> scientific and non-scientific approaches to try to understand the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> world around.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> letter of Logan Streondj returns this theme as actual today.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The interrelations between scientific and non-scientific creating and <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> perceiving the data and models as well the proper attitude to the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> world cultural heritage is one of the main problems to be <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> investigated. The world common data bases make possible to exchange <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> data of any kind.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Some<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> data could not be proved easy, some are assumed as "clear". What is <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> the proper attitude to the ocean of the data we create and perceive? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> In addition, now we have a new phenomenon </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>–<span lang=EN-US> artificially created data.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The Modern Societies<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> --------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Every group of Infoses, people in particular, forms a society if there <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> is an agreement for communication interactions. An important element <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> of this agreement is the availability of a common data base.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> We should not picture the data base like a number of drives with a <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> certain data recorded, although it is the way it has been since the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> beginning </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>–<span lang=EN-US> it was recorded on clay plates, papyrus, paper, etc. The <o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> ability for digital storage of the data lays the beginnings of the <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> genesis of the </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>modern societies</span>”<span lang=EN-US>. It is obvious that, there are as <o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> many societies as many different data bases exist, and a single Infos <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> could belong to more than one society.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>OK.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The difference between the beliefs and the science<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> ---------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Every belief is a totality of models, which are assumed and followed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Where is the difference between the belief and the science, which is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> also<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> a combination of models to be followed?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The answer is in the way we perceive these models and the attitude<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> to them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> There are two approaches </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>–<span lang=EN-US> a hard and an easy one.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The easy one is wonderfully described by the motto of the medieval<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> theologian Anselm of Canterbury, lately canonized as St. Anselm<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> (1033-1109): "Credo, ut intelligam!" (I believe in order to understand<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> [St.Anselm]). One has to believe in the model, to understand and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> follow<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> it. This is the religious approach </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>–<span lang=EN-US> every subjective notion can<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> turn into<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> a commonly accepted model or dogma, as long as there is someone to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> believe<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> in it and follow it implicitly.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>difficult</span>”<span lang=EN-US> approach is described with the phrase "Intelligo, ut<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> credam !" (I understand in order to believe), used by the German<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> reformer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Thomas Muentzer (~1490-1525) [Muentzer]. You have to understand the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> model<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> and only after then to trust it if possible. This is the scientific<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> approach </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>–<span lang=EN-US> every science builds models </span>–<span lang=EN-US> hypothesizes, which are<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> repeatedly tested before assumed to be true. The scientific approach<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> includes a permanent revaluation and improvement of the existing<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> models<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> according to the permanently changing environment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> In every society, building and exchanging of models are basic<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> activities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Whether they are perceived with the </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>easy</span>”<span lang=EN-US> or the </span>“<span lang=EN-US>difficult</span>”<span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> approach is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> a question only of the circumstances, executors and users.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Keeping in mind the limited abilities of the human brain, we can<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> presume<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> that the </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>easy</span>”<span lang=EN-US> approach would probably dominate. Just a small part<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> of the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> humanity would be able to build and understand the </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>difficult</span>”<span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> scientific<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> models. The users will not have the strength to test the models for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> themselves so the only option left would be to </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>believe in order to<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> understand</span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>”<span lang=EN-US>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The role and the importance of particular beliefs in a certain<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> society are<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> determined by the influence of the people ready to doubt the religious<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> models, on the others who easily and </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>blindly</span>”<span lang=EN-US> follow the dogmas. Let<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> remark that in the scientific world the </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>easy approach</span>”<span lang=EN-US> is everyday<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> practice. We all believe that the scientific works represent proved<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> facts<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> (maybe by authors). However, who knows? We trust in authorities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Sometimes we have to doubt!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> That is why the background to modern science is in the wisdom of St.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Augustin (354-430): "Intelligo ut credam, credo ut intelligam!" [St.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Agustin], i.e. it is in the harmony and dialectical unity of the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> scientific and beliefs</span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>’<span lang=EN-US> approaches [K.Markov, 2008].<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Very nice, although in my approach, I identify "science" and belief,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>in a first axiomatic approximation. later, new axioms can be added to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>introduce the nuances, when needed (and such nuances does exist, and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>eventually are imposed by the working hypothesis (mechanism).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Materialism or Idealism<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> -----------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Very important theme, raised from letter of Logan Streondj, is about<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Idealism and Materialism.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Let note that both are religious approaches but not scientific.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>I agree. But if we decide to do metaphysics or theology with the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>scientific method, we can put the metaphysics in the hypothesis, and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>search for criteria of verification.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The first,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Idealism, is based on belief about existence of God, Free Information<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> without material base, Intelligent Creation of the World,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Information Cube<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> which is transferred from one body to another, and etc. The second,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Materialism, is based on the opposite belief - all phenomena pointed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> above<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> do not exist. But both interconnect their reasoning to these<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> phenomena.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The scientific approach is absolutely different. Scientists do not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> assume<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> anything in advance and try to make reasoning based only on<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> repeatable and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> controlled experiments.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> I hope, the FIS List is a scientific forum and all posts nave to be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> based<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> on repeatable and controlled experiments!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>I agree with this partially. Metaphysics/theology *can* be done with<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>the scientific method. When we do that, the evidence are for Mechanism<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>and against Materialism.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Is it idealism? Well, all there is are numbers, and it is not a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>problem to consider them as idea or programs, as this happens by<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>itself through the additive and multiplicative relations between the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>numbers. This explains also where the information comes from, in the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>form of first person histories-selection. There are no evidence for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Aristotle primary matter, which seems to have been a fertile<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>simplifying assumption only. But there are evidences for the many<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>histories in arithmetic (indeed those evidences are theorems), and for<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>the predicted statistics on those histories (the many-world aspect of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>quantum mechanics without reduction).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> About 10 principles of Informatics<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> ----------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Dear Pedro,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> I highly appreciate your proposition of principles!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> I have no remarks about principles 6-10.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> But the principles 1-5 are not clear for me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> My interpretation is given below marked by letter M (M1, M2, etc.).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> These of Pedro are marked by letter P (P1, P2, etc.).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> In my practice these principles had been used many times to solve and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> explain practical problems.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> The primary concept I used is the concept of </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>entity</span>” –<span lang=EN-US> there are many<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> examples of real entities.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Entities interact permanently and after each interaction some internal<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> changes in the entities may appear.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Such changes are called </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>reflections</span>”<span lang=EN-US>. In Computer science the<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> corresponded concept is </span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>“<span lang=EN-US>Data</span>”<span lang=EN-US>.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Further reasoning is given below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> every<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> reflections are<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> information.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>But here you seem to assume primary material entities? I agree that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>human's information relies heavily on material entities. Just to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>communicate with you, I am using a physical computer. But physicalness<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>is an internal phenomelogical view, relying on the statistics on all<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>computations already emulated in the "block-mindscape" constituted by<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>arithmetic. Matter exists in the digital machine or number's<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>phenomenology (as a consequence of the Mechanist theory, which is my<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>field of expertise: I do not claim it to be true, I claim it to be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>testable, and plausible given what we know today).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>The universal numbers (the universal machine run in arithmetic)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>reflect each others already.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> P2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> flows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> M2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> flows, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> P3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> processed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> (either computationally or non-computationally).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> M3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> processed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> (either computationally or non-computationally).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Yes. OK. In fact machine's reflection is only very partially capable<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>of being measured, and machines' reflexion is only partially<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>justfiable. For example, we recover consciousness by the proposition<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>of the type "true, not doubtable, not rationally justifiable, not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>expressible, yet individually knowable". That gives an equation with a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>non empty set of solutions for a large class of universal machine<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>(those with enough rich introspection abilities).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> P4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> production<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> energy flows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> M4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> production<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> energy flows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> P5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Same in arithmetic, when you plunge "meta-arithmetic" in arithmetic,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>following the method of Gödel.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> M5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> one<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> (transitively) reflected by the second one. Such exchanges among<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> adaptive<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> scales.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>OK. I think we agree on many things, except your curious invocation of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>matter which is slightly ambiguous on its primary-or-not character.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>I would not equate information with reflection though, but there are<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>important relationship between meaningful (true or possibly true)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>information and reflection.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Material or physical information exists, but is of a very different<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>nature than mental and number-theoretical, or logical information. The<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>first one arises from limits defined from the machine's perspective,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>when emulated by infinitely many computations in arithmetic. It is<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>that material aspect of machines handling of information which makes<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>the Digital Mechanist (alias computationalism) testable in the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>empirical domain.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Of course we get closer to Plato and Neoplatonism (the monist Plato of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>the Parmenides; not so much the one of the Timeaeus) than to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Aristotle's materialism. Eventually the physical science are reduced<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>to elementary arithmetic, but here I mean "intensional arithmetic",<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>where a number can be a code for a digital machine. Note that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>intensional arithmetic is isomorphic to a part of extensional<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>arithmetic. Each universal number can be used to construct the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>isomorphism, like Gödel already did in 1931.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Krassimir<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Bibliography<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> [St.Anselm] <a href="http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/middleages.html">http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/middleages.html</a> ,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> <a href="http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/hop30.htm">http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/hop30.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> [Muentzer] <a href="http://www.thomas-muentzer.de/">http://www.thomas-muentzer.de/</a>,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> [St.Agust</span><span style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>í<span lang=EN-US>n] <a href="http://www.conoze.com/doc.php?doc=157">http://www.conoze.com/doc.php?doc=157</a><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> [K.Markov, 2008] K. Markov, S. Poryazov, K. Ivanova, I. Mitov, V.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Markova. Culture Aspects of Inforaction. International Journal<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> INFORMATION<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> TECHNOLOGIES & KNOWLEDGE, Volume 2, 2008, Number 4, pp. 335-342.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> <a href="http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol02/ijitk02-4-p06.pdf">http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol02/ijitk02-4-p06.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><a href="http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif'><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>