<div dir="ltr">Cari Tutti,<div>la distinzione tra materialisti e idealisti, corpo e anima (o spirito), materia e energia è interfacciata o intermediata dall'informazione. </div><div>L'informazione è indispensabile per la conoscenza di tutto ciò che costituisce la realtà dell'esistenza o l'esistenza della realtà del mondo.</div><div>Se ciò è vero la materia è un modo o una forma di essere dell'energia e l'energia è un modo o una forma di essere della materia. Se la conoscenza</div><div>di questo mondo è costituita dall'informazione tutto è quantizzato in bit. Ma i bit non bastano. Bisogna andare oltre la comunicazione di</div><div>Shannon inventando una teoria che consideri l'informazione come il concetto fondamentale, non solo della fisica, ma anche dell'economia, etc.</div><div>Nella materia l'energia prende una forma particolare, come nell'energia la materia prende una forma particolare. Un bene economico è</div><div> contemporaneamente o alternativamente un essere merce (materiale) e un essere segno (immateriale) o moneta. Quindi la realtà economica è</div><div> ad un tempo liquida e illiquida, monetaria o non monetaria.Si tratta quindi di "modellizzare" l'intreccio o complementarità o compenetrazione </div><div> o entanglement degli elementi che costituiscono la realtà della vita o la vita della realtà. I dati o le idee diventano fatti quando le loro forme</div><div>significano qualcosa che diventa oggetto di comunicazione. In conclusione la nostra mente, con la collaborazione di tutti gli organi del nostro corpo,</div><div> fornisce l'informazione ad-atta e ad-attabile per comunicare con gli altri, perchè comunicando si vive, non vivendo si comunica. In estrema sintesi, </div><div>senza scadere in ragionamenti cervellotici, per informazione si deve intendere un'azione o processo che consente di dare forma alle persone</div><div> (non agli individui) e a tutti gli altri esseri viventi (animalii e vegetali), alle idee e alle cose. Mentre dis-informazione è un'azione o un processo contrario </div><div>al prendere forma, ma significa perdere o degradare la forma.</div><div>Un saluto cordiale espresso senza alcuna presunzione o arroganza. Il miglior modo per comunicare è rispettare tutti, anche quelli che la pensano </div><div>e la dicono diversamente da noi.</div><div>Francesco Rizzo</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-11-02 0:25 GMT+01:00 Sungchul Ji <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu" target="_blank">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div id="m_-4073445725031237960divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir="ltr">
<p>Hi Michell and FISers,</p><span class="">
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"<span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><b>Data</b> is that what we see by using the
<b>eyes</b>. <b>Information</b> is that what</span><br style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">
<span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the
<b>brain</b>;</span><br style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">
<span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes."</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
</span><p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">This paragraph contains the following pairs or relations:</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">Data ~ eyes</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">Information ~ brain</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">Since eyes cannot function without the brain but the brain can without eyes, I wonder if the
above tetrad can be reduced to a triad:</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> <span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"> Data
</span>~ <span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)">eyes/brain</span> ~ <span style="color:rgb(255,0,0)">
information</span></span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">which in turn may be explained in more detail using the ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation) diagram thus:<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">
</span></p><table class="m_-4073445725031237960MsoTableGrid" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:157.0pt">
<td width="638" valign="top" style="width:6.65in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;background:#eeece1;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:157.0pt">
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";color:#212121"><br>
</span><span style="color:#212121"> f g (</span><b><span style="color:red">eyes/brain</span></b><span style="color:#212121">)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:#212121"> Reality --------------> Sign ----------------------> Interpretant</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:#212121"> | (</span><b><span style="color:red">Data</span></b><span style="color:#212121">) ^</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:#212121"> | |</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:#212121"> |___________________________<wbr>____________________________|</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:#212121"> h (</span><b><span style="color:red">information</span></b><span style="color:#212121">)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="color:#212121"> <b>Figure 1. </b>
The <i>data-information relation</i> explained on the basis of ITR (Irreudicible Triadic Relation). The arrows read "determines" and "interpretant is the effect the sign has on the mind of the interpreter (biotic or abiotic). f = measurement; g = mental process
<b>; </b>h = correspondence or<b> </b>information flow.</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<u></u> <u></u></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<p></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">If you have any question or comments, let me know.</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px">Sung</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> f g (<b>eyes/brain</b>)</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> Reality ------------> Sign -------------------> Interpretant</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> | (<b>Data</b>)
^</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> |
|</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> |____________________________<wbr>______________________|</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> h (information)</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> Figure 1. f = measurement or
<b>eyes</b>; g = mental process or <b>brain; h = correspondence or </b>information flow</span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal,"Segoe UI","Segoe WP",Tahoma,Arial,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:13.3333px"></span></p>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_-4073445725031237960x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Michel Petitjean <<a href="mailto:petitjean.chiral@gmail.com" target="_blank">petitjean.chiral@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 1, 2017 5:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] mind-mind</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt">
<div class="m_-4073445725031237960PlainText"><div><div class="h5">Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All,<br>
<br>
I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly from<br>
Mind to Mind.<br>
Being a materialist, I consider that only matter exists.<br>
Does it mean that information is matter or energy?<br>
No.<br>
Let me discuss about this contradiction.<br>
Parenthesis: energy is linked to mass through math modeling of<br>
physical laws, and mass is a property of matter (could also be linked<br>
to a modeling concept, but it is unimportant here).<br>
People (not only scientists) build math and non math models to attempt<br>
to explain what they observe.<br>
Would you consider that math is matter?<br>
Probably no.<br>
Thus math and non math models that we build in our heads are not matter.<br>
However they are produced through some biochemical process, and as<br>
such they originate from matter.<br>
Eventually, it could be considered that math and other concepts are a<br>
somewhat special part of matter, but I think that claim would not be<br>
accepted in our current language(s).<br>
I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in our heads.<br>
In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not worse.<br>
Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as believers do not<br>
impose to me the consequences of their beliefs.<br>
Religious beliefs must be private affairs.<br>
Here, please accept my apologies if some of you are shocked by the<br>
previous sentences.<br>
<br>
Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some situations.<br>
However, I do not claim that information can be reduced to the math<br>
concepts of information.<br>
<br>
To conclude:<br>
<br>
1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro.<br>
<br>
2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am a<br>
poor philosopher.<br>
Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be able to elaborate a<br>
coherent theory about life, consciousness , etc. May be it is<br>
impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc.<br>
All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss information<br>
and so on.<br>
<br>
3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain the<br>
one of Karl.<br>
Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017:<br>
"Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what<br>
we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain;<br>
because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes."<br>
<br>
All my best,<br>
<br>
Michel.<br>
<br>
Michel Petitjean<br>
MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7,<br>
35 rue Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France.<br>
Phone: <a href="tel:+33%201%2057%2027%2084%2034" value="+33157278434" target="_blank">+331 5727 8434</a>; Fax: <a href="tel:+33%201%2057%2027%2083%2072" value="+33157278372" target="_blank">+331 5727 8372</a><br>
E-mail: <a href="mailto:petitjean.chiral@gmail.com" target="_blank">petitjean.chiral@gmail.com</a> (preferred),<br>
<a href="mailto:michel.petitjean@univ-paris-diderot.fr" target="_blank">michel.petitjean@univ-paris-<wbr>diderot.fr</a><br>
</div></div><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpetitjeanmichel.free.fr%2Fitoweb.petitjean.html&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cbf7631e0dff442f73d7508d5216fa58b%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636451685771465824&sdata=N%2F5Hj%2FvBN5SFKXEltkcE2H4N6RYM%2BWo8%2FLTWin1XSX4%3D&reserved=0" id="m_-4073445725031237960LPlnk298095" target="_blank">https://na01.safelinks.<wbr>protection.outlook.com/?url=<wbr>http%3A%2F%2Fpetitjeanmichel.<wbr>free.fr%2Fitoweb.petitjean.<wbr>html&data=02%7C01%7Csji%<wbr>40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%<wbr>7Cbf7631e0dff442f73d7508d5216f<wbr>a58b%<wbr>7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca663<wbr>2ffe%7C1%7C0%<wbr>7C636451685771465824&sdata=N%<wbr>2F5Hj%<wbr>2FvBN5SFKXEltkcE2H4N6RYM%<wbr>2BWo8%2FLTWin1XSX4%3D&<wbr>reserved=0</a><span class=""><br>
<br>
> Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues,<br>
><br>
> Thank you for the nice remark.<br>
><br>
> I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in any experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place in such experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific issues about this very interesting phenomenon.<br>
><br>
> Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you use FIS List to send your ideas to us?<br>
><br>
> Friendly greetings<br>
> Krassimir<br>
><br>
> PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to excuse me for answering the next posts after week.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: Alex Hankey<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM<br>
> To: Krassimir Markov<br>
> Cc: FIS Webinar<br>
> Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles<br>
><br>
> RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.<br>
><br>
> M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information.<br>
><br>
> ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication.<br>
> Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore.<br>
><br>
> The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such Information States Are Not Material Entities.<br>
> They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons.<br>
><br>
> The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this phenomenon becomes one of Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support of them.<br>
><br>
> Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy.<br>
><br>
> This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported.<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
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<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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