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<p>Hi Michell and FISers,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"<span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><b>Data</b> is that what we see by using the
<b>eyes</b>. <b>Information</b> is that what</span><br style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">
<span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the
<b>brain</b>;</span><br style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">
<span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes."</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">This paragraph contains the following pairs or relations:</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">Data ~ eyes</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">Information ~ brain</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">Since eyes cannot function without the brain but the brain can without eyes, I wonder if the
above tetrad can be reduced to a triad:</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"> Data
</span>~ <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">eyes/brain</span> ~ <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">
information</span></span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">which in turn may be explained in more detail using the ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation) diagram thus:<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">
<table class="MsoTableGrid" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none;mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt;
mso-yfti-tbllook:1184;mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<tbody>
<tr style="mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes;
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<td width="638" valign="top" style="width:6.65in;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif";color:#212121"><br>
</span><span style="color:#212121"> f g (</span><b><span style="color:red">eyes/brain</span></b><span style="color:#212121">)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color:#212121"> Reality --------------> Sign ----------------------> Interpretant</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color:#212121"> | (</span><b><span style="color:red">Data</span></b><span style="color:#212121">) ^</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color:#212121"> | |</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color:#212121"> |_______________________________________________________|</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color:#212121"> h (</span><b><span style="color:red">information</span></b><span style="color:#212121">)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="color:#212121"> <b>Figure 1. </b>
The <i>data-information relation</i> explained on the basis of ITR (Irreudicible Triadic Relation). The arrows read "determines" and "interpretant is the effect the sign has on the mind of the interpreter (biotic or abiotic). f = measurement; g = mental process
<b>; </b>h = correspondence or<b> </b>information flow.</span><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI", sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal">
<o:p> </o:p></p>
</td>
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</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">If you have any question or comments, let me know.</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">Sung</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> f g (<b>eyes/brain</b>)</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> Reality ------------> Sign -------------------> Interpretant</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> | (<b>Data</b>)
^</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> |
|</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> |__________________________________________________|</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> h (information)</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> Figure 1. f = measurement or
<b>eyes</b>; g = mental process or <b>brain; h = correspondence or </b>information flow</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"></span></p>
<br>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Michel Petitjean <petitjean.chiral@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 1, 2017 5:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] mind-mind</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt;">
<div class="PlainText">Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All,<br>
<br>
I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly from<br>
Mind to Mind.<br>
Being a materialist, I consider that only matter exists.<br>
Does it mean that information is matter or energy?<br>
No.<br>
Let me discuss about this contradiction.<br>
Parenthesis: energy is linked to mass through math modeling of<br>
physical laws, and mass is a property of matter (could also be linked<br>
to a modeling concept, but it is unimportant here).<br>
People (not only scientists) build math and non math models to attempt<br>
to explain what they observe.<br>
Would you consider that math is matter?<br>
Probably no.<br>
Thus math and non math models that we build in our heads are not matter.<br>
However they are produced through some biochemical process, and as<br>
such they originate from matter.<br>
Eventually, it could be considered that math and other concepts are a<br>
somewhat special part of matter, but I think that claim would not be<br>
accepted in our current language(s).<br>
I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in our heads.<br>
In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not worse.<br>
Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as believers do not<br>
impose to me the consequences of their beliefs.<br>
Religious beliefs must be private affairs.<br>
Here, please accept my apologies if some of you are shocked by the<br>
previous sentences.<br>
<br>
Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some situations.<br>
However, I do not claim that information can be reduced to the math<br>
concepts of information.<br>
<br>
To conclude:<br>
<br>
1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro.<br>
<br>
2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am a<br>
poor philosopher.<br>
Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be able to elaborate a<br>
coherent theory about life, consciousness , etc. May be it is<br>
impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc.<br>
All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss information<br>
and so on.<br>
<br>
3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain the<br>
one of Karl.<br>
Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017:<br>
"Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what<br>
we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain;<br>
because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes."<br>
<br>
All my best,<br>
<br>
Michel.<br>
<br>
Michel Petitjean<br>
MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7,<br>
35 rue Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France.<br>
Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372<br>
E-mail: petitjean.chiral@gmail.com (preferred),<br>
michel.petitjean@univ-paris-diderot.fr<br>
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<br>
> Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues,<br>
><br>
> Thank you for the nice remark.<br>
><br>
> I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in any experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place in such experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific issues about this very interesting phenomenon.<br>
><br>
> Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you use FIS List to send your ideas to us?<br>
><br>
> Friendly greetings<br>
> Krassimir<br>
><br>
> PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to excuse me for answering the next posts after week.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: Alex Hankey<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM<br>
> To: Krassimir Markov<br>
> Cc: FIS Webinar<br>
> Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles<br>
><br>
> RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.<br>
><br>
> M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information.<br>
><br>
> ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication.<br>
> Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore.<br>
><br>
> The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such Information States Are Not Material Entities.<br>
> They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons.<br>
><br>
> The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this phenomenon becomes one of Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support of them.<br>
><br>
> Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy.<br>
><br>
> This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
Fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
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