<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Gordana,<div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 20 Oct 2017, at 11:02, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252"> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> <div> <div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br> </div> <div><!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:DocumentProperties> <o:Revision>0</o:Revision> <o:TotalTime>0</o:TotalTime> <o:Pages>1</o:Pages> <o:Words>57</o:Words> <o:Characters>331</o:Characters> <o:Company>MDH</o:Company> 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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment--> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Dear Terry, Bob, Loet</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir"><br> </font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Thank you for sharing those important thoughts about possible choices for the definition of agency.</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir"><br> </font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">I would like to add one more perspective that I find in Pedro’s article which makes a distinction between matter-energy aspects and informational aspects of the same physical reality. I believe that on the fundamental level of information physics we have a good ND simplest example how those two entangled aspects can be formally framed.</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">As far as I can tell, Terrys definition covers chemical and biological agency.</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Do we want to include apart from fundamental physics also full cognitive and social agency which are very much dominated by informational aspects (symbols and language)?</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Obviously there is no information without physical implementation,</font></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Hmm... I am not sure. Elementary arithmetic determines all semi-computable relative information state (with Oracles). So, with the numbers, once you accept the addition laws and the multiplication laws, information "grows" from inside, and consciousness differentiates. </div><div>When the information get deeper and deeper, in Bennett sense of debth, dreams can stabilize and physical reality are "correctly" inferred, and eventually derived from arithmetic.</div><div><br></div><div>That might not make your point below invalid.</div><div><br></div><div>It is yet an important metaphysical point. The incompleteness theorem entails the existence of a sort of canonical information flux, or consciousness differentiation internal to elementary arithmetic, or elementary combinators, or to any universal machinery (universal in the mathematical Church-Turing-Post-Kleene sense). </div><div><br></div><div>We can decide to consider the arithmetical beings being zombies, but this would entails a very special definition of matter to make it differ from the testable "arithmetical distribution".</div><div><br></div><div>We can't have weak mechanism and weak materialism, and the evidences might side on a mathematical (somehow theological or psychological) origin of the physical reality.</div><div><br></div><div>Incompleteness entails that all (platonist, classical reasoner machine) are confronted with many different, and conflicting, views about itself. Indeed it enforces the Theaetetus' distinctions, between true, provable, knowable, observable, sensible:</div><div><br></div><div>p, </div><div>[]p, </div><div>[]p&p, </div><div>[]p&~[]f, </div><div>[]p&~[]f&p</div><div><br></div><div>With p sigma_1 arithmetical (equivalently: partial computable) this gives a proposition account of a theology, testable as it explains how the physical laws emerges from some "dream percolation" in arithmetic. </div><div><br></div><div>The physical is very important, but like in Plato, it could be, and seemed to be, the border of another non physical, more mathematical, plausibly arithmetical, reality. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div><div><div><div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir"> but when we think about epistemology and the ways we know the world, for us and other biological agents <i>there is no physical interaction without informational aspects</i>.</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Can we somehow think in terms those two faces of agency?</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Without matter/energy nothing will happen, nothing can act in the world but that which happens and anyone registers it, has informational side to it.</font></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Without matter/energy nothing physical will happen. But if we assume a very weak form of digital mechanism, arithmetic justfies limiting dreams, with rich indexical, relative amount of information, from "inside arithmetic". And what we take as the physical might be what emerges from a first person statistics on those dreams.</div><div><br></div><div>The logic of which is testable, and up to now, it matches the data (thanks to QM without coilapse of the wave).</div><div><br></div><div>It is just premature to conclude that information (in the 1p and 3p sense) needs the physical. The physical might be an invariant in a notion of normal sharable number dream. (A dream can be defined by a computation containing the emulation of a Löbian machine (they know they are universal) with respect to different or not universal numbers.</div><div><br></div><div>In arithmetic, the universal numbers infers that below their substitution level, if it exists, they are confronted to a statistics on infinity of universal numbers, and above, locally, only with a finite (but huge) number of universal machine/number.</div><div><br></div><div>I am aware I ask a huge spiritual or theological effort, coming back to Plotinus, and Parmenides, and Plato, if not Pythagoras. </div><div><br></div><div>But in epistemology, computable can be defined in very elementary theories and languages. The deep reason is the closure of the partial computable functions for cantor diagonalization (Gödel's called that a Miracle), and its price: the non computability of most predicate on most machines behaviors (like halting), and the loss of control and the art of letting go the things which go without saying.</div><div><br></div><div>The universal (Löbian) machine can already defeat all normative or reductionist theory about their first person. They know that their soul is not a machine!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div><div><div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">For human agency (given that matter/energy side is functioning) information is what to a high degree drives agency.</font></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div><div><div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir"><br> </font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Do you think this would be a fruitful path to pursue, with “agency” of elementary particles and agency of social institutions as two limit cases?</font></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agency of elementary particles? I am not sure this would not make all the number relations into an agent. Social institution are closer, perhaps even more the corporations, but none are really autonomous. I don't know.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This was my second (and last) post of the week. </div><div><br></div><div>All the best and best to All,</div><div><br></div><div>Bruno</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div><div><div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir"><br> </font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Avenir"><br></font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"><font face="Avenir">Gordana</font></div> <div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br> </div> <div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br> </div> <div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br> </div> <div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font face="Avenir">______________________________________________</font></div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1">Gordana Dodig Crnkovic, Professor of Computer Science</font></div> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1">Department of Computer Science and Engineering</font></div> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1">Chalmers University of Technology </font></div> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1">School of Innovation, Design and Engineering, Mälardalen University</font></div> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1"><a href="http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc">http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc</a>/</font></div> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1">General Chair of is4si summit 2017</font></div> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1"><a href="http://is4si-2017.org/">http://is4si-2017.org</a> </font></div> <div><font face="Avenir-Book" size="1"><br> </font></div> </div> </div> <!--EndFragment--></div> <!--EndFragment--> <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><!--EndFragment--><!--EndFragment--><!--EndFragment--><!--EndFragment--></div> <div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;"><font face="Avenir" size="1"></font></div> </div> </div> </div> <div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br> </div> <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"> <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br> <span style="font-weight:bold">Organization: </span>University of Amsterdam<br> <span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span>"<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br> <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Friday, 20 October 2017 at 08:40<br> <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>'Bob Logan' <<a href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca">logan@physics.utoronto.ca</a>>, 'fis' <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br> <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Fis] What is “Agent”?<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Helvetica; 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mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} span.m2661958331623774865hoenzb {mso-style-name:m_2661958331623774865hoenzb;} span.EmailStyle22 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} span.EmailStyle24 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:1762990130; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-447161098 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:?; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Symbol;} @list l0:level2 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:"Courier New";} @list l0:level3 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:?; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level4 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:?; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Symbol;} @list l0:level5 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:"Courier New";} @list l0:level6 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:?; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Wingdings;} @list l0:level7 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:?; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Symbol;} @list l0:level8 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:"Courier New";} @list l0:level9 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:?; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-.25in; font-family:Wingdings;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style> <div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"> <div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose">Dear Bob and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></a></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">I agree with the choice element. From a sociological perspective, agency is usually defined in relation to structure. For example, in terms of structure/actor contingencies. The structures provide the background that bind us. Remarkably, Mark, we no longer define these communalities philosophically, but sociologically (e.g., Merton, 1942, about the institutional norms of science). An interesting extension is that we nowadays not only perceive communality is our biological origins (as species), but also in terms of communicative layers that we construct and reproduce as inter-agency (interactions).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">The relation with the information issue is not obvious. I worked on this a bit in the first half of the 90s: <o:p></o:p></span></div> <ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc"> <li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/jtsb93/index.htm"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">"Structure"/"Action" Contingencies and the Model of Parallel Distributed Processing, </span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><i>Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour</i> 23 (1993) 47-77.</span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/jses95/jses95.pdf"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">The Production of Probabilistic Entropy in Structure/Action Contingency Relations, </span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><i>Journal of Social and Evolutionary Systems</i> 18 (1995) 339-56.</span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose">Loet<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> <hr size="3" width="100%" align="center"> </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Loet Leydesdorff </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam<br> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">loet@leydesdorff.net </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">; </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br> </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">Associate Faculty, </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU, </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">University of Sussex; <o:p></o:p></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">Guest Professor </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC, </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">Beijing;<o:p></o:p></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">Visiting Fellow, </span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">, University of London; <o:p></o:p></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></span><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></span></div> </div><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Logan<br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 20, 2017 6:11 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br> <b>Cc:</b> fis <<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] What is “Agent”?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Terry and FIS friends - I agree with all that Terry has said about agency. I do wish to however to point out that an agent has choice and a non-agent has no choice. I would suggest that the defining characteristic of an agent is choice and therefore an agent must be a living organism and all living organisms are agents. Agents/living organisms have choice or are capable of choice or agency and they are the only things that have choice or can interpret information. Abiotic non-agents do not have information because they have no choice. We humans can have information about abiotic objects but those objects themselves do not have that information as they have no mind to be informed. That includes this email post, it is abiotic an has no agency. It has information by virtue of you reading it because you are able to interpret the visual signs with which I have recorded my thoughts. Marshall McLuhan would add to my comments that “the user is the content” as well as saying that Shannon’s work was not a theory of information but a "theory of transportation”. I think of Shannon’s work in a similar light. I also do not regard Shannon’s work as a theory of information but it is a theory of signals. Shannon himself said his theory was not about meaning and I say what is information without meaning and that therefore Shannon only had a theory of signals. <o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Another insight of McLuhan’s that of figure and ground is useful to understand why we have so many different definitions of information. McLuhan maintained that one could not understand a figure unless one understood the ground in which it operates in. (McLuhan might have gotten this idea from his professor at Cambridge, I. A. Richards, who said that in order to communicate one needs to feedforward [he coined the term btw] the context of what one is communicating.) The different definitions of information we have considered are a result of the different contexts in which the term information is used. We should also keep in mind that all words are metaphors and metaphor literally means to carry across, derived from the Greek meta (literally ‘across') and phorein (literally 'to carry'). So the word information has been carried across from one domain or area of interest to another. It entered the English language as the noun associated with the verb 'to inform', i.e. to form the mind. Here is an excerpt from my book <i>What Is Information? </i>(available for free at <a href="http://demopublishing.com">demopublishing.com</a>):<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in;line-height:150%"> <b>"Origins of the Concept of Information - </b>We begin our historic survey of the development of the concept of information with its etymology. The English word information according to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) first appears in the written record in 1386 by Chaucer: 'Whanne Melibee hadde herd the grete skiles and resons of Dame Prudence, and hire wise informacions and techynges.' The word is derived from Latin through French by combining the word inform meaning giving a form to the mind with the ending “ation” denoting a noun of action. This earliest definition refers to an item of training or molding of the mind.” This is why abiotic objects have no information as I claimed above because they have no mind that can be informed.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I hope that by informing you of the origin of the word information I have shed some light on our confusion about what is information and why we have so many definitions of it. It might even shed some light for that matter as to what is an agent. Got the ticket? If so that makes me a ticket agent. I hope you get the joke. all the best - Bob<o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><br> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><br> <br> </span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">______________________</span></span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Robert K. Logan</span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span></span><o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Fellow University of St. Michael's College</span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/">https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On Oct 19, 2017, at 7:11 PM, Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">AUTONOMOUS AGENCY: The definition I propose for autonomous agency It is open to challenge. Of course, there are many ways that we use the term 'agent' in more general and metaphoric ways. I am, however, interested in the more fundamental conception that these derived uses stem from. I do not claim that this definition is original, but rather that it is what we implicitly understand by the concept. So if this is not your understanding I am open to suggestions for modification. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I should add that it has been a recent goal of my work to describe an empirically testable simplest model system that satisfies this definition. Those of you who are familiar with my work will recognize that this is what I call an autogenic or teleodynamic system. In this context, however, it is only the adequacy of the definition that I am interested in exploring. As in many of the remarks of others on this topic it is characterized by strange-loop recursivity, self-reference, and physicality. And it may be worth while describing how this concept is defined by e.g. Hofstadter, von Foerster, Luhmann, Moreno, Kauffman, Barad, and others, to be sure that we have covered the critical features and haven't snuck in any "demons". In my definition, I have attempted to avoid any cryptic appeal to observers or unexamined teleological properties, because my purpose is instead to provide a constructive definition of what these properties entail and why they are essential to a full conception of information.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">CENTRALITY OF NORMATIVE PROPERTIES: A critical factor when discussing agency is that it is typically defined with respect to "satisfaction conditions" or "functions" or "goals" or other NORMATIVE properties. Normative properties are all implicitly teleological. They are irrelevant to chemistry and physics. The concept of an "artificial agent" may not require intrinsic teleology (e.g. consider thermostats or guidance systems - often described as teleonomic systems) but the agentive properties of such artifacts are then implicitly parasitic on imposed teleology provided by some extrinsic agency. This is of course implicit also in the concepts of 'signal' and 'noise' which are central to most information concepts. These are not intrinsic properties of information, but are extrinsically imposed distinctions (e.g. noise as signal to the repair person). So I consider the analysis of agency and its implicit normativity to be a fundamental issue to be resolved in our analysis of information. Though we can still bracket any consideration of agency from many analyses my simply assuming it (e.g. assumed users, interpreters, organisms and their functions, etc.), but this explicitly leaves a critical defining criterion outside the analysis. In these cases, we should just be clear that in doing so we have imported unexplained boundary conditions into the analysis by fiat. Depending on the goal of the analysis (also a teleological factor) this may be unimportant. But the nature and origin of agency and normativity remain foundational questions for any full theory of information. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Stanley N Salthe<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type="cite"> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Here is an interesting recent treatment of autonomy.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="m2661958331623774865gmail-p1" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Alvaro Moreno and Matteo Mossio: Biological Autonomy: A Philosophical<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="m2661958331623774865gmail-p1" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">and Theoretical Enquiry (History, Philosophy and Theory of the Life Sciences 12);<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="m2661958331623774865gmail-p1" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Springer, Dordrecht, 2015, xxxiv + 221 pp., $129 hbk, ISBN 978-94-017-9836-5<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="m2661958331623774865gmail-p1" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="m2661958331623774865gmail-p1" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">STAN<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Terrence W. DEACON<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type="cite"> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">AN AUTONOMOUS AGENT IS A DYNAMICAL SYSTEM ORGANIZED TO BE CAPABLE OF INITIATING PHYSICAL WORK TO FURTHER PRESERVE THIS SAME CAPACITY IN THE CONTEXT OF INCESSANT EXTRINSIC AND/OR INTRINSIC TENDENCIES FOR THIS SYSTEM CAPACITY TO DEGRADE. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">THIS ENTAILS A CAPACITY TO ORGANIZE WORK THAT IS SPECIFICALLY CONTRAGRADE TO THE FORM OF THIS DEGRADATIONAL INFLUENCE, AND THUS ENTAILS A CAPACITY TO BE INFORMED BY THE EFFECTS OF THAT INFLUENCE WITH RESPECT TO THE AGENT’S CRITICAL ORGANIZATIONAL CONSTRAINTS.<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Koichiro Matsuno<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:CXQ02365@nifty.com" target="_blank">CXQ02365@nifty.com</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type="cite"> <div> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA">On 19 Oct 2017 at 6:42 AM, Alex Hankey wrote:</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA">the actual subject has to be non-reducible and fundamental to our universe.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>This view is also supported by Conway-Kochen’s free will theorem (2006). If (a big IF, surely) we admit that our fellows can freely exercise their free will, it must be impossible to imagine that the atoms and molecules lack their share of the similar capacity. For our bodies eventually consist of those atoms and molecules.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Moreover, the exercise of free will on the part of the constituent atoms and molecules could come to implement the centripetality of Bob Ulanowicz at long last under the guise of chemical affinity unless the case would have to forcibly be dismissed.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>This has been my second post this week.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Koichiro Matsuno</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <b><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span></span><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Alex Hankey<br> <b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, October 19, 2017 6:42 AM<br> <b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Arthur Wist <<a href="mailto:arthur.wist@gmail.com" target="_blank">arthur.wist@gmail.com</a>>; FIS Webinar <<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] What is “Agent”?</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA">David Chalmers's analysis made it clear that if agents exist, then they are as fundamental to the universe as electrons or gravitational mass. <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA">Certain kinds of physiological structure support 'agents' - those emphasized by complexity biology. But the actual subject has to be non-reducible and fundamental to our universe. <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA">Alex <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"> </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br> Fis mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </blockquote> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888"><br> <br clear="all"> </span><span class="m2661958331623774865hoenzb"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span class="m2661958331623774865hoenzb"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">--</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888"> </span></span><span class="m2661958331623774865hoenzb"><o:p></o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br> University of California, Berkeley</span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br> _______________________________________________<br> Fis mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> </blockquote> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br> <br clear="all"> <o:p></o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">--<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p> <div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br> University of California, Berkeley<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br> Fis mailing list<br> </span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br> </span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </span> </div> _______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<br></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><a href="http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></div></div></body></html>