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<p>Hi Bob,</p>
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<p>I agree that entropy is a measure of disorcer but this does not mean that <span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">ΔS </span><u style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">></u><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;"> 0.</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;"><br>
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<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">In other words S cannot be negative (due to the Third Law) but
<span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">
ΔS can be neagive, since </span> <span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">ΔS = S_final - S_initial and S_inital can be greater than S_final
as when systems get more organized as some non-isolated systems are known to do, e.g., growing cells.</span></span><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">
I think Schroedinger conflated S with <span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">ΔS when he said that "negative entropy is order" which is wrong.
But had he said that "negative entropy change is order", he would have been right.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">All the best.</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;"><br>
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<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;">Sung</span></p>
<p><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;"><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 15px;"><u></u></span></span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Bob Logan <logan@physics.utoronto.ca><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 14, 2017 9:55:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sungchul Ji<br>
<b>Cc:</b> tozziarturo@libero.it; fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION</font>
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<div>Hello Sung and Arturo. Entropy is a measure of disorder and ΔS <u class="">></u> 0. If entropy is zero at T = 0 K because there is no disorder at T = absolute zero then entropy can only increase from T = 0 K. If that is the case how can entropy ever be
negative?
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<div class="">Arturo asked me to share a private email I sent to him about the elephant and the 3 blind men. He urged me to share it with the group. Because we are limited to 2 posts per week I waited until I had something else to post. So here by Arturo’s
request is our correspondence:</div>
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<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top: 0px;" class="">Dear Bob, <br class="">
A nice story!<br class="">
I think you must share it with FISers.</p>
<p dir="ltr" class="">...even if I think that, while one blind man is touching the elephant, another is touching a lion, and another a deer...<br class="">
In other words, your tale says that a single elephant does exist, while I'm not so sure...<br class="">
However, don't worry, I will not make a public critic to your nice tale!</p>
<div id="mail-app-auto-default-signature" class="">
<p dir="ltr" class="">--<br class="">
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</p>
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venerdì, 06 ottobre 2017, 02:15PM +02:00 da Bob Logan <a href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" class="">logan@physics.utoronto.ca</a>:<br class="">
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<div id="style_15072921040000031709_BODY" class="">Caro Arturo - and thanks for your feedback.
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<div class="">The discussion of info on the FIS list (re what is info) is like the 3 blind men inspecting an elephant. It is a rope said the blind man holding the tail; no It is a snake said the blind man holding the trunk; no It is a tree said the blind man
touching the elephant’s leg.<br class="">
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I refrained from using this story on the FIS list as it might come off as insulting - what do you think - should I share it with the group </div>
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<div class=""><span style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; widows: 2;" class="">tanti auguri - Bob</span> <br class="">
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">______________________</span></div>
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Robert K. Logan</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;">
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Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span>
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Fellow
University of St. Michael's College</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Chief
Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;">
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<div class="">On Oct 14, 2017, at 9:25 PM, Sungchul Ji <<a href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu" class="">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Hi Arturo,</div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">I agree. Engtropy can be negative MATHEMATICALLY, as Shroedinger assumed.</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">But what I am claiming is that that may be a mathematical artifact, since, according to the Third Law of Thermodynamics, therer is no negative entropy. </div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">All the best.</div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Sung</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a> <<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, October 13, 2017 6:02 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sungchul Ji<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re[2]: Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION</font>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Dear Sung,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
I'm sorry, but the "Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics" still holds true. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
Forget philosophical concepts like Yin and Yang, because, in some cases and contexts , entropy is negative. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
Just to make an example,<br class="">
"Since the entropy H(S|O) can now become negative, erasing a system can result in a net gain of work (and a corresponding cooling of the environment)."</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Fnature%2Fjournal%2Fv474%2Fn7349%2Ffull%2Fnature10123.html&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Ca5ca884de09b4db6055208d5136fcb6f%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636436293251642975&sdata=vx8zU7NcJySMGIeC3MwW2MfaMbfJdmhqmR7DvFn5sas%3D&reserved=0" class="">https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7349/full/nature10123.html</a></div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">--<br class="">
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</div>
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venerdì, 13 ottobre 2017, 10:11PM +02:00 da Sungchul Ji<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu" class="">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>:<br class="">
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Hi Arturo,</div>
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(<b class="">1</b>) I don't understand where you got (or how you can justify) S = 1 J/K in your statement,</div>
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"<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">With the same probability mass function, you can see that H = S/(ln(2)*k</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">B</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">),
so setting S = 1J/K gives a Shannon entropy of 1.045×10</span><sup style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">23</sup><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""> bits."</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">(<b class="">2</b>) I can see how one can get H = S/(ln(2)*k_B mathematically, but what does this equality
mean physically ?</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">(<b class="">3</b>) This reminds me of what Schroedinger did when he came up with the conclusion
that "negative entropy" is equivalent to "order", which led to Brillouin's so-called the "negentropy Principle of Information (NPI)" [1, 2].</span></div>
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Simply by multiplying the both sides of the Boltzmann equation with negative one, Schroedinger obtained the following formula:</div>
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- S = - k lnW = k ln (1/W)</div>
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and then equating W with disorder, D, led him to </div>
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- S = k ln (1/D).</div>
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Since (1/D) can be interpreted as the opposite of "disorder", namely, "order", he concluded that</div>
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"negative entropy = order".</div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">As you can see, the above derivation is mathematically sound but the result violates the Third
Law of Thermodynamics, according to which thermodynamic entropy cannot be less than zero.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">Thus, in 2012 I was led to formulate what I called the "Schroedinger paradox" as follows [3]</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">"Schroedinger's paradox refers to the mathematical equations, concepts, or general statements that
are formally true but physically meaningless."<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">(<b class="">4</b>) If my argument in (<b class="">3</b>) is valid, this may provide an example
of what may be called </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">the "<i class="">Unreasonable Ineffectiveness of Mathematics</i>"</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">which, together with Wigner's "<i class="">Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics</i>", may
constitute an Yin-Yang pair of mathematics. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">All the best.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">Sung</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""> </span></p>
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<span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">References:<br class="">
[1] </span><span style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">Brillouin, L. (1953). Negentropy Principle of Information,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><i style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">J.
Applied Phys.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i><b style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">24</b><span style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">(9),
1152-</span><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""></span><span style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">1163.</span><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""></span></div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""> [2] Brillouin, L. (1956).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Science and Information Theory,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Academic Press, Inc., New York, pp.
152-156.</div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 13px;" class=""> [3] Ji,
S. (2012).<span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">The Third Law of </span><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.conformon.net%2Fpublications%2Fbook-chapters%2F%23&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C511ec2156e354837251b08d512861605%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636435289482215942&sdata=zAKuZdQlER6RaI%2FkwVxPh4rwLSDdo8KbjelhBuTPIy8%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Thermodynamics</span></a><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""> and </span><a title="Schroedinger's paradox" href="http://www.conformon.net/?attachment_id=1033" target="_blank" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">“Schroedinger’s
Paradox”</span></a><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">. In:</span><em style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Molecular
Theory of the Living Cell: Concepts, Molecular Mechanisms, and Biomedical Applications.</span></em><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""> Springer, New York. pp. 12-15.</span><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 13px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">
PDF at </span><a href="http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Schroedinger_paradox.pdf" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Schroedinger_pa</span>radox.pdf</a></span></font></span></div>
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<div dir="ltr" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, October 13, 2017 4:43 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sungchul Ji;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>R: Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION</font>
<div class=""> </div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear Sung, </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">One J/K corresponds to 1.045×10</span><sup style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">23</sup><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""> bits.</span></div>
<div class=""><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 13px;" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 13px;" class="">Indeed, </span></font></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">The Gibbs entropy formula states that thermodynamic entropy S equals k</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">B</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">*sum[p</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">i</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">*ln(1/p</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">i</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">)],
with units of J/K, where k</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">B</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""> is
the Boltzmann constant and p</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">i</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""> is
the probability of microstate i. On the other hand, the Shannon entropy is defined as H = sum[p</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">i</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">*log</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">2</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">(1/p</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">i</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">)],
with units of bits. With the same probability mass function, you can see that H = S/(ln(2)*k</span><sub style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">B</sub><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">),
so setting S = 1J/K gives a Shannon entropy of 1.045×10</span><sup style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class="">23</sup><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);" class=""> bits.</span></div>
<div class=""><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 13px;" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class=""><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 13px;" class="">On the other side, The<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=SVpHR1pPRjQ5cjMwK1E1b3NhUVdYZWNCcGxiZlJjUGhlbEFPemROVE1xYU1VTHJoZWF5T2p0d0Z5YXNDWmt2NDBGdk1jb3Eybm5JNDRoTytMVEUxUE9WaUV0bC9qMTdaZWI3UUJhQSt4S2xjaHlhcFdTUi8rWm52WVMvdndnaTZIakl3Y2JyejFqazFGM1hpb2RxWjY4UmtzQ3FuTWtlQzAzQ0FrNDFQS2Z3PQ2" target="_blank" class="">energy</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>consumption
per bit of data on </span></font><span style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class="">the Internet is around 75 μJ at low access rates and decreases </span><span style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class="">to
around 2-4 μJ at an access rate of 100 Mb/s.</span><span style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
</span>see: </div>
<div class=""><a href="http://www.ing.unitn.it/~fontana/GreenInternet/Recent%20Papers%20and%20p2p/Baliga_Ayre_Hinton_Sorin_Tucker_JLT0" target="_blank" class="">http://www.ing.unitn.it/~fontana/GreenInternet/Recent%20Papers%20and%20p2p/Baliga_Ayre_Hinton_Sorin_Tucker_JLT0</a>.<a href="http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=WCtDQW94L0I0Q0FJMVpZakdtU3NsdWxYcmFCTUF1dVg4b3lSRDFFY3FGTEZrZTZldmVIMW9ZMHgvVDFrWHZzQTZCUjNnOS8rZm11VWhiZFVDVE5IbzgyakdBV25oVDdPMVJDNHFTZEJtUXpLbUYySy9LbHlvK1Z4RHMyVGt3YmowNmdFcWhva0RuQzdiMWJ4SE1CVXlUMUxkZWJxcGloT1l3bFlQN0hyOStVPQ2" target="_blank" class="">pdf</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Futher, <span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">according to Landauer's theory, a minimum amount of heat – roughly 10</span><sup style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">–21</sup><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class=""> J
per erased bit – must be dissipated when information is destroyed.</span></div>
<div class=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 13px;" class=""><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysicsworld.com%2Fcws%2Farticle%2Fnews%2F2012%2Fmar%2F12%2Fwiping-data-will-cost-you-energy&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C511ec2156e354837251b08d512861605%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636435289482215942&sdata=o%2BkpHjFXjCvKpfXAXIUU%2FD3HdYhJXVf4rsSGNadkmBc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/mar/12/wiping-data-will-cost-you-energy</a></span><br class="">
</font><br class="">
<br class="">
In other words, summarizing, if you use the free energy to assess the information, it works the same, giving a quantifiable value. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><b class="">Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Farturotozzi.webnode.it%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cf8b6d51eca454497b53708d512168698%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636434810329439532&sdata=t%2BaKyHxgUMMDD5KBr5zpPigvg%2BM4GacNv%2FnAosp4pnI%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" style="font-size: 14px; color: rgb(5, 68, 126); line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class="">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""> </span></font><br class="">
</p>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote class="">----Messaggio originale----<br class="">
Da: "Sungchul Ji" <<a href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu" class="">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>><br class="">
Data: 12/10/2017 22.08<br class="">
A: "Francesco Rizzo"<<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" class="">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>>, "Pedro C. Marijuan"<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" class="">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>><br class="">
Cc: "<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> >> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">
fis@listas.unizar.es</a>"<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class="">
Ogg: Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION<br class="">
<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, EmojiFont, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols;" class="">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Hi FISers,</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">The following statement cannot be true.</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, EmojiFont, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;" class="">
<div class="">"a proposal: information might stand for free energy." </div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class="">Fore one thing, the unit of information is bits and that of energy is cal or erg.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The proper relation between information and energy (including free energy) may be complementarity, just as is the relation between wave and particle. According to the ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation) model of of signs and communication, information
and energy are entangled in the sense that both are irreplaceably implicated in the process of communication. Both information and energy are needed for communication, the minimum energy cost of transmitting one bit of information being ~ 0.6 Kcal/mole, according
to Shannon.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Sung</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div style="" class="">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display: inline-block; width: 1239.6875px;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf
of Francesco Rizzo <<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" class="">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, October 12, 2017 3:00 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Pedro C. Marijuan<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION</font>
<div class=""> </div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Caro Pedro e cari tutti,
<div class="">gli ingressi e le uscite delle cellule viventi con l'ambiente, non sono altro che materia, energia e informazione che entrano (INPUT) ed escono (OUTPUT) dando luogo al processo di TRAS-IN-FORM-AZIONE che ho elaborato nella Nuova Economia a proposito
dei sistemi produttivi entropici (energia degradata o dis-informazione) e neg-entropici (energia libera o informazione) che hanno un carattere generale. Tanto è vero che circa 20 anni fa ho applicato e riferito alla cellula che stabilisce con l'ambiente (biologico-naturale)
un rapporto simile a quello che l'intrapresa (azienda) stabilisce con l'ambiente (sociale-economico). In fondo la bio-chimica e l'economia risultano complementari nella vita degli uomini la cui esistenza e conoscenza possono ben comprendersi secondo la onto-logica
empirica o concreta, altrimenti detta LIR, che la generosità di Joseph Brenner ha intravisto anche nella mia analisi scientifica. Purtroppo questa problematica, ben espressa e sintetizzata dal processo di TRAS-IN-FORM-AZIONE e più volte oggetto di confronto
e discussione nel dibattito Fis, è poco conosciuta perchè si ritrova esposta in una ventina dei miei libri scritti in italiano.</div>
<div class="">Comunque il TEMPO è (sempre galantuomo e fornisce) l'INFORMAZIONE giusta svolgendo la funzione della LINGUA delle LINGUE che tutti possono com-prendere, prima o poi. Grazie, per l'opportunità che mi date a partire da Pedro che ha il grande merito
dell'iniziazione-mediazione in tal senso.</div>
<div class="">Un abbraccio, Francesco Rizzo.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">2017-10-11 14:30 GMT+02:00 Pedro C. Marijuan<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" class="">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span>:<br class="">
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<div class="">Dear Arturo and colleagues,<br class="">
<br class="">
I think that relating information to free energy can be a good idea. I am not sure whether the expressions derived from Gibbs free energy (below) have sufficient generality; at least they work very well for chemical reactions. And it is in the biomolecular
(chemical) realm where the big divide between "animate information" and "inanimate information" occurs. In that sense, I include herein the scheme we have just published of prokaryotic cells in their management of the "information flow". In a next message
I will make suggestions on how the mapping of biological information may conduce to a more general approach that includes the other varieties of information (anthropocentric, physical, chemical, cosmological, etc). Biological information is the most fundamental
and radical track to unite the different approaches!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Best--Pedro<br class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class="">Pedro C. Marijuán</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class=""></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class="">, Jorge Navarro</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class=""></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class="">,
Raquel del Moral.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class=""><b class="">How prokaryotes ‘encode’ their environment: Systemic tools for organizing the information flow.</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencedirect.com%2Fscience%2Fjournal%2F03032647&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cb77eb4e083e14afe3fd408d5113f296e%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636433885376777542&sdata=hgAUJohUnGSCDMsHGjpui7TyWls2JAj8TNyO0l1oldM%3D&reserved=0" title="Go to Biosystems on ScienceDirect" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;" class="">Biosystems</span></a>.
October<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>2017.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Tahoma;" class=""><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.biosystems.2017.10.002&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cb77eb4e083e14afe3fd408d5113f296e%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636433885376777542&sdata=dks6yfnRbSgyq95ZtIqnanis1l8YpGOkG7bYGIIc%2BhQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2017.10.002</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
<b class="">Abstract</b><br class="">
An important issue related to code biology concerns the cell’s informational relationships with the environment. As an open self-producing system, a great variety of inputs and outputs are necessary for the living cell, not only consisting of matter and energy
but also involving information flows. The analysis here of the simplest cells will involve two basic aspects. On the one side, the molecular apparatuses of the prokaryotic signaling system, with all its variety of environmental signals and component pathways
(which have been called 1–2-3 Component Systems), including the role of a few second messengers which have been pointed out in bacteria too. And in the other side, the gene transcription system as depending not only on signaling inputs but also on a diversity
of factors. Amidst the continuum of energy, matter, and information flows, there seems to be evidence for signaling codes, mostly established around the arrangement of life-cycle stages, in large metabolic changes, or in the relationships with conspecifics
(quorum sensing) and within microbial ecosystems. Additionally, and considering the complexity growth of signaling systems from prokaryotes to eukaryotes, four avenues or “roots” for the advancement of such complexity would come out. A comparative will be
established in between the signaling strategies and organization of both kinds of cellular systems. Finally, a new characterization of “informational architectures” will be proposed in order to explain the coding spectrum of both prokaryotic and eukaryotic
signaling systems. Among other evolutionary aspects, cellular strategies for the construction of novel functional codes via the intermixing of informational architectures could be related to the persistence of retro-elements with obvious viral ancestry.<br class="">
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El 10/10/2017 a las 11:14,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>escribió:<br class="">
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<div class="">Dear FISers, </div>
<div class="">a proposal: information might stand for free energy. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Indeed, we know that, for an engine: </div>
<div class="">enthalpy = free energy + entropy x temperature.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">At a fixed temperature, </div>
<div class="">enthalpy = free energy +entropy </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The information detected (from an environmental object) by an observer is not the total possible one (the enthalpy encompassed in the object), but just a part, i.e., the part that it is not uncertain for him (the free energy). Hence, every observer,
depending on his peculiar features, detects a different amont of free energy and does not detect the uncertain part (the entropy). </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><b class="">Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class=""><font face="courier new,
monospace" class="">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 18.399999618530273px;" class="">
<font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Farturotozzi.webnode.it%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cb77eb4e083e14afe3fd408d5113f296e%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636433885376777542&sdata=ogDNynoTvgEYS9nWhADhKo%2FTo892Dku5zfask%2FngSLY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" style="font-size: 14px; color: rgb(5, 68, 126); line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class="">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;" class=""> </span></font><br class="">
</p>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote class="">----Messaggio originale----<br class="">
Da: "Christophe Menant"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:Christophe.Menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank" class=""><Christophe.Menant@hotmail.fr></a><br class="">
Data: 10/10/2017 11.01<br class="">
A:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank" class="">"deacon@berkeley.edu"</a><a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank" class=""><deacon@berkeley.edu></a><br class="">
Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br class="">
Ogg: [Fis] TR: Data - Reflection - Information<br class="">
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<div class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">T</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">hanks for these comments Terry</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">.</span><br class="">
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">We should indeed be careful not to focus too much on language because 'meaning' is not limited to human communication. And also because starting at basic life level allows to address 'meaning' without
the burden of complex performances like self-consciousness or free will. (The existing bias on language may come from analytic philosophy initially dealing with human performances).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
Interestingly, a quite similar comment may apply to continental philosophy where the 'aboutness' of a mental state was invented for human consciousness. And this is of some importance for us because 'intentionality' is close to 'meaning'. Happily enough 'bio-intentionality'
is slowly becoming an acceptable entity (<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENBAM-2&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cb77eb4e083e14afe3fd408d5113f296e%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636433885376777542&sdata=Xe9y93pS8mRR%2FFXeir1xgl7TqyRQL2iIs3zxwegkmIw%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENBAM-2</a>).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
Regarding Peirce, I'm a bit careful about using the triadic approach in FIS because non human life was not a key subject for him and also because the Interpreter which creates the meaning of the sign (the Interpretant) does not seem that much explicited or detailed.<br class="">
The divisions you propose look interesting (<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class="">intrinsic, referential, normative). Would it be possible to read more on that (sorry if I have missed some of your posts)? </span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Best </span><br class="">
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Christophe</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">De :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Fis<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>de
la part de Terrence W. DEACON<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank" class=""><deacon@berkeley.edu></a><br class="">
<b class="">Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>lundi 9 octobre 2017 02:30<br class="">
<b class="">À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sungchul Ji<br class="">
<b class="">Cc :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>foundationofinformationscience<br class="">
<b class="">Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] Data - Reflection - Information</font>
<div class=""> </div>
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<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Against "meaning"
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I think that there is a danger of allowing our anthropocentrism to bias the discussion. I worry that the term 'meaning' carries too much of a linguistic bias.</div>
<div class="">By this I mean that it is too attractive to use language as our archtypical model when we talk about information.</div>
<div class="">Language is rather the special case, the most unusual communicative adaptation to ever have evolved, and one that grows out of and depends on informationa/semiotic capacities shared with other species and with biology in general.</div>
<div class="">So I am happy to see efforts to bring in topics like music or natural signs like thunderstorms and would also want to cast the net well beyond humans to include animal calls, scent trails, and molecular signaling by hormones. And it is why I am
more attracted to Peirce and worried about the use of Saussurean concepts.</div>
<div class="">Words and sentences can indeed provide meanings (as in Frege's Sinn - "sense" - "intension") and may also provide reference (Frege's Bedeutung - "reference" - "extension"), but I think that it is important to recognize that not all signs fit this
model. Moreover, </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">A sneeze is often interpreted as evidence about someone's state of health, and a clap of thunder may indicate an approaching storm.</div>
<div class="">These can also be interpreted differently by my dog, but it is still information about something, even though I would not say that they mean something to that interpreter. Both of these phenomena can be said to provide reference to something other
than that sound itself, but when we use such phrases as "it means you have a cold" or "that means that a storm is approaching" we are using the term "means" somewhat metaphorically (most often in place of the more accurate term "indicates").</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And it is even more of a stretch to use this term with respect to pictures or diagrams. </div>
<div class="">So no one would say the a specific feature like the ears in a caricatured face mean something.</div>
<div class="">Though if the drawing is employed in a political cartoon e.g. with exaggerated ears and the whole cartoon is assigned a meaning then perhaps the exaggeration of this feature may become meaningful. And yet we would probably agree that every line
of the drawing provides information contributing to that meaning.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So basically, I am advocating an effort to broaden our discussions and recognize that the term information applies in diverse ways to many different contexts. And because of this it is important to indicate the framing, whether physical, formal,
biological, phenomenological, linguistic, etc.</div>
<div class="">For this reason, as I have suggested before, I would love to have a conversation in which we try to agree about which different uses of the information concept are appropriate for which contexts. The classic syntax-semantics-pragmatics distinction
introduced by Charles Morris has often been cited in this respect, though it too is in my opinion too limited to the linguistic paradigm, and may be misleading when applied more broadly. I have suggested a parallel, less linguistic (and nested in Stan's subsumption
sense) way of making the division: i.e. into intrinsic, referential, and normative analyses/properties of information. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thus you can analyze intrinsic<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F7769domain.com%2FAd%2FGoIEx2%2F%3Ftoken%3DSVpHR1pPRjQ5cjMwK1E1b3NhUVdYZWNCcGxiZlJjUGhlbEFPemROVE1xWnBTaVFOZHBLMURFYk4xRnJ2bW04RVJhYXVNQmp2akwxdDNYSDJrRG12QzdRYXY3SEZ5bWlROW81M1dwRXNhejdJS3FVbjlUNkZ5bzFLR3FwbXNQWWllTGhBR3pCM3RLVExaUnl4V2JIak1lV1lRek50UE9BQkhGanNJcnh0eC9kclFpNHYxdmRSdFV0aUFWcEowdGJJ0&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7C511ec2156e354837251b08d512861605%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636435289482215942&sdata=oG6rqKxNKO37r1QrzSMVkXS5rkOdE8aLQHegI4qs4Hk%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">properties</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>of
an informing medium [e.g. Shannon etc etc] irrespective of these other properties, but can't make sense of referential properties [e.g. what something is about, conveys] without considering intrinsic sign vehicle properties, and can't deal with normative properties [e.g.
use value, contribution to function, significance, accuracy, truth] without also considering referential properties [e.g. what it is about].</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In this respect, I am also in agreement with those who have pointed out that whenever we consider referential and normative properties we must also recognize that these are not intrinsic and are interpretation-relative. Nevertheless, these are
legitimate and not merely subjective or nonscientific properties, just not physically intrinsic. I am sympathetic with those among us who want to restrict analysis to intrinsic properties alone, and who defend the unimpeachable value that we have derived from
the formal foundations that Shannon's original analysis initiated, but this should not be used to deny the legitimacy of attempting to develop a more general theory of information that also attempts to discover formal principles underlying these higher level
properties implicit in the concept. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">I take this to be the intent behind Pedro's list. And I think it would be worth asking for each of his points: Which information paradigm within this hoierarchy does it assume?</div>
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<div class="">— Terry</div>
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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
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50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. <a value="+34976713526" target="_blank" class="">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)
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<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Ca5ca884de09b4db6055208d5136fcb6f%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636436293251642975&sdata=vavyHmiRc4YJWbrpncY%2BRIjLDC6kEHe343r4rbZ5VGI%3D&reserved=0" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></div>
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