<HTML><BODY><p style="margin-top: 0px;" dir="ltr">Dear Sung, <br> I'm sorry, but the "Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics" still holds true. <br> Forget philosophical concepts like Yin and Yang, because, in some cases and contexts , entropy is negative. <br> Just to make an example,<br> "Since the entropy H(S|O) can now become negative, erasing a system can result in a net gain of work (and a corresponding cooling of the environment)."</p>
<p dir="ltr">https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7349/full/nature10123.html</p>
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<p dir="ltr">--<br> Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</p>
</div>venerdì, 13 ottobre 2017, 10:11PM +02:00 da Sungchul Ji <a href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>:<br><br><blockquote id="mail-app-auto-quote" style="border-left:1px solid #85AF31; margin:0px 0px 0px 10px; padding:0px 0px 0px 10px;" cite="15079254910000031873">
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Hi Arturo,</p>
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(<b>1</b>) I don't understand where you got (or how you can justify) S = 1 J/K in your statement,</p>
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"<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">With the same probability mass function, you can see that H = S/(ln(2)*k</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">B</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">),
so setting S = 1J/K gives a Shannon entropy of 1.045×10</span><sup style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">23</sup><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"> bits."</span>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">(<b>2</b>) I can see how one can get H = S/(ln(2)*k_B mathematically, but what does this equality mean physically
?</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">(<b>3</b>) This reminds me of what Schroedinger did when he came up with the conclusion that "negative entropy" is
equivalent to "order", which led to Brillouin's so-called the "negentropy Principle of Information (NPI)" [1, 2].</span></p>
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Simply by multiplying the both sides of the Boltzmann equation with negative one, Schroedinger obtained the following formula:</p>
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- S = - k lnW = k ln (1/W)</p>
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and then equating W with disorder, D, led him to </p>
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- S = k ln (1/D).</p>
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Since (1/D) can be interpreted as the opposite of "disorder", namely, "order", he concluded that</p>
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"negative entropy = order".</p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">As you can see, the above derivation is mathematically sound but the result violates the Third Law of Thermodynamics,
according to which thermodynamic entropy cannot be less than zero.</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">Thus, in 2012 I was led to formulate what I called the "Schroedinger paradox" as follows [3]</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">"Schroedinger's paradox refers to the mathematical equations, concepts, or general statements that are formally true
but physically meaningless." </span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">(<b>4</b>) If my argument in (<b>3</b>) is valid, this may provide an example of what may be called </span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">the "<i>Unreasonable Ineffectiveness of Mathematics</i>"</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">which, together with Wigner's "<i>Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics</i>", may constitute an Yin-Yang pair
of mathematics. </span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">All the best.</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">Sung</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">References:<br>
[1] </span><span style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 13px;">Brillouin, L. (1953). Negentropy Principle of Information,
</span><i style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 13px;">J. Applied Phys.
</i><b style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 13px;">24</b><span style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 13px;">(9),
1152-</span><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"></span><span style="background-color: rgb(225, 235, 242);font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 13px;">1163.</span><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"></p>
<p ></p>
<p > [2] Brillouin, L. (1956). <i>Science and Information Theory,
</i>Academic Press, Inc., New York, pp. 152-156.</p>
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<p ><span style="background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13px"> [3] Ji, S. (2012).<span style="font-size: 10pt;">
</span></span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);font-family: Lato, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">The Third Law of </span><a href="http://www.conformon.net/publications/book-chapters/#" target="_blank" ><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Thermodynamics</span></a><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);font-family: Lato, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;"> and </span><a title="Schroedinger's paradox" href="http://www.conformon.net/?attachment_id=1033" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">“Schroedinger’s
Paradox”</span></a><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);font-family: Lato, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">. In:</span><em style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Lato,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Molecular Theory of the Living
Cell: Concepts, Molecular Mechanisms, and Biomedical Applications.</span></em><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);font-family: Lato, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;"> Springer, New York. pp. 12-15.</span><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13px"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">
PDF at </span><a href="http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Schroedinger_paradox.pdf" previewremoved="true" target="_blank" ><span style="font-size: 10pt;">http://www.conformon.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Schroedinger_pa</span>radox.pdf</a></span></font></span></p>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">tozziarturo@libero.it</a> <<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 13, 2017 4:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sungchul Ji; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> R: Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Dear Sung, </div>
<div><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">One J/K corresponds to 1.045×10</span><sup style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">23</sup><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"> bits.</span></div>
<div><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13px">Indeed, </span></font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">The Gibbs entropy formula states that thermodynamic entropy S equals k</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">B</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">*sum[p</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">i</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">*ln(1/p</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">i</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">)],
with units of J/K, where k</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">B</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"> is
the Boltzmann constant and p</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">i</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"> is
the probability of microstate i. On the other hand, the Shannon entropy is defined as H = sum[p</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">i</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">*log</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">2</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">(1/p</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">i</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">)],
with units of bits. With the same probability mass function, you can see that H = S/(ln(2)*k</span><sub style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">B</sub><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">),
so setting S = 1J/K gives a Shannon entropy of 1.045×10</span><sup style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:normal;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)">23</sup><span style="font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(225,235,242)"> bits.</span></div>
<div><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face="Lucida Grande, Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13px">On the other side, The
<a href="http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=SVpHR1pPRjQ5cjMwK1E1b3NhUVdYZWNCcGxiZlJjUGhlbEFPemROVE1xYU1VTHJoZWF5T2p0d0Z5YXNDWmt2NDBGdk1jb3Eybm5JNDRoTytMVEUxUE9WaUV0bC9qMTdaZWI3UUJhQSt4S2xjaHlhcFdTUi8rWm52WVMvdndnaTZIakl3Y2JyejFqazFGM1hpb2RxWjY4UmtzQ3FuTWtlQzAzQ0FrNDFQS2Z3PQ2" target="_blank">energy</a>
consumption per bit of data on </span></font><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">the Internet is around 75 μJ at low access rates and decreases </span><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">to
around 2-4 μJ at an access rate of 100 Mb/s.</span><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:'Lucida Grande','Trebuchet MS',Verdana,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span>see: </div>
<div><a href="http://www.ing.unitn.it/~fontana/GreenInternet/Recent%20Papers%20and%20p2p/Baliga_Ayre_Hinton_Sorin_Tucker_JLT0" target="_blank" >http://www.ing.unitn.it/~fontana/GreenInternet/Recent%20Papers%20and%20p2p/Baliga_Ayre_Hinton_Sorin_Tucker_JLT0</a>.<a href="http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=WCtDQW94L0I0Q0FJMVpZakdtU3NsdWxYcmFCTUF1dVg4b3lSRDFFY3FGTEZrZTZldmVIMW9ZMHgvVDFrWHZzQTZCUjNnOS8rZm11VWhiZFVDVE5IbzgyakdBV25oVDdPMVJDNHFTZEJtUXpLbUYySy9LbHlvK1Z4RHMyVGt3YmowNmdFcWhva0RuQzdiMWJ4SE1CVXlUMUxkZWJxcGloT1l3bFlQN0hyOStVPQ2" target="_blank">pdf</a><br>
<br>
Futher, <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">according to Landauer's theory, a minimum amount of heat – roughly 10</span><sup style="padding:0px;margin:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">–21</sup><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> J
per erased bit – must be dissipated when information is destroyed.</span></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13px"><a href="http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/mar/12/wiping-data-will-cost-you-energy" target="_blank" >http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/mar/12/wiping-data-will-cost-you-energy</a></span><br>
</font><br>
<br>
In other words, summarizing, if you use the free energy to assess the information, it works the same, giving a quantifiable value. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<p style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal;text-align:start"><font face="courier new, monospace"><b>Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span style="line-height:115%"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal;text-align:start"><font face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal;text-align:start"><font face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<font face="courier new, monospace"><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Farturotozzi.webnode.it%2F&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cf8b6d51eca454497b53708d512168698%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636434810329439532&sdata=t%2BaKyHxgUMMDD5KBr5zpPigvg%2BM4GacNv%2FnAosp4pnI%3D&reserved=0" style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(5,68,126);line-height:normal;text-align:start" target="_blank" >http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal;text-align:start"> </span></font><br>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>----Messaggio originale----<br>
Da: "Sungchul Ji" <<a href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>><br>
Data: 12/10/2017 22.08<br>
A: "Francesco Rizzo"<<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>>, "Pedro C. Marijuan"<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>><br>
Cc: "fis@listas.unizar.es >> fis@listas.unizar.es"<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Ogg: Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji',NotoColorEmoji,'Segoe UI Symbol','Android Emoji',EmojiSymbols">
<p>Hi FISers,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The following statement cannot be true.</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,'Apple Color Emoji','Segoe UI Emoji',NotoColorEmoji,'Segoe UI Symbol','Android Emoji',EmojiSymbols;font-size:16px">
<div >"a proposal: information might stand for free energy." </div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div >Fore one thing, the unit of information is bits and that of energy is cal or erg.</div>
</div>
<div ><br>
</div>
<div >The proper relation between information and energy (including free energy) may be complementarity, just as is the relation between wave and particle. According to the ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation) model of of signs and communication,
information and energy are entangled in the sense that both are irreplaceably implicated in the process of communication. Both information and energy are needed for communication, the minimum energy cost of transmitting one bit of information being ~ 0.6
Kcal/mole, according to Shannon.</div>
<div ><br>
</div>
<div >All the best.</div>
<div ><br>
</div>
<div >Sung</div>
<div ><br>
</div>
<div > </div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Francesco Rizzo <<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 12, 2017 3:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Pedro C. Marijuan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> >> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] A PROPOSAL ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF INFORMATION</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Caro Pedro e cari tutti,
<div>gli ingressi e le uscite delle cellule viventi con l'ambiente, non sono altro che materia, energia e informazione che entrano (INPUT) ed escono (OUTPUT) dando luogo al processo di TRAS-IN-FORM-AZIONE che ho elaborato nella Nuova Economia a proposito dei
sistemi produttivi entropici (energia degradata o dis-informazione) e neg-entropici (energia libera o informazione) che hanno un carattere generale. Tanto è vero che circa 20 anni fa ho applicato e riferito alla cellula che stabilisce con l'ambiente (biologico-naturale)
un rapporto simile a quello che l'intrapresa (azienda) stabilisce con l'ambiente (sociale-economico). In fondo la bio-chimica e l'economia risultano complementari nella vita degli uomini la cui esistenza e conoscenza possono ben comprendersi secondo la onto-logica
empirica o concreta, altrimenti detta LIR, che la generosità di Joseph Brenner ha intravisto anche nella mia analisi scientifica. Purtroppo questa problematica, ben espressa e sintetizzata dal processo di TRAS-IN-FORM-AZIONE e più volte oggetto di confronto
e discussione nel dibattito Fis, è poco conosciuta perchè si ritrova esposta in una ventina dei miei libri scritti in italiano.</div>
<div>Comunque il TEMPO è (sempre galantuomo e fornisce) l'INFORMAZIONE giusta svolgendo la funzione della LINGUA delle LINGUE che tutti possono com-prendere, prima o poi. Grazie, per l'opportunità che mi date a partire da Pedro che ha il grande merito dell'iniziazione-mediazione
in tal senso.</div>
<div>Un abbraccio, Francesco Rizzo.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div ><br>
<div >2017-10-11 14:30 GMT+02:00 Pedro C. Marijuan <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div >Dear Arturo and colleagues,<br>
<br>
I think that relating information to free energy can be a good idea. I am not sure whether the expressions derived from Gibbs free energy (below) have sufficient generality; at least they work very well for chemical reactions. And it is in the biomolecular
(chemical) realm where the big divide between "animate information" and "inanimate information" occurs. In that sense, I include herein the scheme we have just published of prokaryotic cells in their management of the "information flow". In a next message
I will make suggestions on how the mapping of biological information may conduce to a more general approach that includes the other varieties of information (anthropocentric, physical, chemical, cosmological, etc). Biological information is the most fundamental
and radical track to unite the different approaches! <br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">Pedro C. Marijuán</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">, Jorge Navarro</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">,
Raquel del Moral. <br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"><b>How prokaryotes ‘encode’ their environment: Systemic tools for organizing the information flow.</b>
<br>
<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencedirect.com%2Fscience%2Fjournal%2F03032647&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cb77eb4e083e14afe3fd408d5113f296e%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636433885376777542&sdata=hgAUJohUnGSCDMsHGjpui7TyWls2JAj8TNyO0l1oldM%3D&reserved=0" title="Go to Biosystems on ScienceDirect" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Biosystems</span></a>.
October<span> </span>2017. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.biosystems.2017.10.002&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cb77eb4e083e14afe3fd408d5113f296e%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636433885376777542&sdata=dks6yfnRbSgyq95ZtIqnanis1l8YpGOkG7bYGIIc%2BhQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2017.10.002</a><u></u><u></u></span>
<br>
<br>
<b>Abstract</b><br>
An important issue related to code biology concerns the cell’s informational relationships with the environment. As an open self-producing system, a great variety of inputs and outputs are necessary for the living cell, not only consisting of matter and energy
but also involving information flows. The analysis here of the simplest cells will involve two basic aspects. On the one side, the molecular apparatuses of the prokaryotic signaling system, with all its variety of environmental signals and component pathways
(which have been called 1–2-3 Component Systems), including the role of a few second messengers which have been pointed out in bacteria too. And in the other side, the gene transcription system as depending not only on signaling inputs but also on a diversity
of factors. Amidst the continuum of energy, matter, and information flows, there seems to be evidence for signaling codes, mostly established around the arrangement of life-cycle stages, in large metabolic changes, or in the relationships with conspecifics
(quorum sensing) and within microbial ecosystems. Additionally, and considering the complexity growth of signaling systems from prokaryotes to eukaryotes, four avenues or “roots” for the advancement of such complexity would come out. A comparative will be
established in between the signaling strategies and organization of both kinds of cellular systems. Finally, a new characterization of “informational architectures” will be proposed in order to explain the coding spectrum of both prokaryotic and eukaryotic
signaling systems. Among other evolutionary aspects, cellular strategies for the construction of novel functional codes via the intermixing of informational architectures could be related to the persistence of retro-elements with obvious viral ancestry.<br>
-------------------------------------------
<div>
<div ><br>
<br>
El 10/10/2017 a las 11:14, <a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">
tozziarturo@libero.it</a> escribió:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div >
<div>Dear FISers, </div>
<div>a proposal: information might stand for free energy. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indeed, we know that, for an engine: </div>
<div>enthalpy = free energy + entropy x temperature.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At a fixed temperature, </div>
<div>enthalpy = free energy +entropy </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The information detected (from an environmental object) by an observer is not the total possible one (the enthalpy encompassed in the object), but just a part, i.e., the part that it is not uncertain for him (the free energy). Hence, every observer, depending
on his peculiar features, detects a different amont of free energy and does not detect the uncertain part (the entropy). </div>
<div><br>
<p style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal;text-align:start"><font face="courier new, monospace"><b>Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
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<span style="line-height:115%"><font face="courier new,
monospace">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal;text-align:start"><font face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal;text-align:start"><font face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></p>
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<blockquote>----Messaggio originale----<br>
Da: "Christophe Menant" <a href="mailto:Christophe.Menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">
<Christophe.Menant@hotmail.fr></a><br>
Data: 10/10/2017 11.01<br>
A: <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">
"deacon@berkeley.edu"</a><a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank"><deacon@berkeley.edu></a><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">
"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
Ogg: [Fis] TR: Data - Reflection - Information<br>
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<div><span style="font-size:12pt">T</span><span style="font-size:12pt">hanks for these comments Terry</span><span style="font-size:12pt">.</span><br>
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<p >We should indeed be careful not to focus too much on language because 'meaning' is not limited to human communication. And also because starting at basic life level allows to address 'meaning' without the burden of complex performances
like self-consciousness or free will. (The existing bias on language may come from analytic philosophy initially dealing with human performances).
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Interestingly, a quite similar comment may apply to continental philosophy where the 'aboutness' of a mental state was invented for human consciousness. And this is of some importance for us because 'intentionality' is close to 'meaning'. Happily enough 'bio-intentionality'
is slowly becoming an acceptable entity (<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENBAM-2&data=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.rutgers.edu%7Cb77eb4e083e14afe3fd408d5113f296e%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636433885376777542&sdata=Xe9y93pS8mRR%2FFXeir1xgl7TqyRQL2iIs3zxwegkmIw%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENBAM-2</a>).
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Regarding Peirce, I'm a bit careful about using the triadic approach in FIS because non human life was not a key subject for him and also because the Interpreter which creates the meaning of the sign (the Interpretant) does not seem that much explicited or detailed.<br>
The divisions you propose look interesting (<span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:16px">intrinsic, referential, normative). Would it be possible to read more on that (sorry if I have missed some of your posts)? </span></p>
<p ><span style="font-size:12pt">Best </span><br>
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<p >Christophe</p>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Fis
<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">
<fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> de la part de Terrence W. DEACON <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">
<deacon@berkeley.edu></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> lundi 9 octobre 2017 02:30<br>
<b>À :</b> Sungchul Ji<br>
<b>Cc :</b> foundationofinformationscience<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] Data - Reflection - Information</font>
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<div dir="ltr">Against "meaning"
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<div>I think that there is a danger of allowing our anthropocentrism to bias the discussion. I worry that the term 'meaning' carries too much of a linguistic bias.</div>
<div>By this I mean that it is too attractive to use language as our archtypical model when we talk about information.</div>
<div>Language is rather the special case, the most unusual communicative adaptation to ever have evolved, and one that grows out of and depends on informationa/semiotic capacities shared with other species and with biology in general.</div>
<div>So I am happy to see efforts to bring in topics like music or natural signs like thunderstorms and would also want to cast the net well beyond humans to include animal calls, scent trails, and molecular signaling by hormones. And it is why I am more attracted
to Peirce and worried about the use of Saussurean concepts.</div>
<div>Words and sentences can indeed provide meanings (as in Frege's Sinn - "sense" - "intension") and may also provide reference (Frege's Bedeutung - "reference" - "extension"), but I think that it is important to recognize that not all signs fit this model.
Moreover, </div>
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<div>A sneeze is often interpreted as evidence about someone's state of health, and a clap of thunder may indicate an approaching storm.</div>
<div>These can also be interpreted differently by my dog, but it is still information about something, even though I would not say that they mean something to that interpreter. Both of these phenomena can be said to provide reference to something other than
that sound itself, but when we use such phrases as "it means you have a cold" or "that means that a storm is approaching" we are using the term "means" somewhat metaphorically (most often in place of the more accurate term "indicates").</div>
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<div>And it is even more of a stretch to use this term with respect to pictures or diagrams. </div>
<div>So no one would say the a specific feature like the ears in a caricatured face mean something.</div>
<div>Though if the drawing is employed in a political cartoon e.g. with exaggerated ears and the whole cartoon is assigned a meaning then perhaps the exaggeration of this feature may become meaningful. And yet we would probably agree that every line of the
drawing provides information contributing to that meaning.</div>
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<div>So basically, I am advocating an effort to broaden our discussions and recognize that the term information applies in diverse ways to many different contexts. And because of this it is important to indicate the framing, whether physical, formal, biological,
phenomenological, linguistic, etc.</div>
<div>For this reason, as I have suggested before, I would love to have a conversation in which we try to agree about which different uses of the information concept are appropriate for which contexts. The classic syntax-semantics-pragmatics distinction introduced
by Charles Morris has often been cited in this respect, though it too is in my opinion too limited to the linguistic paradigm, and may be misleading when applied more broadly. I have suggested a parallel, less linguistic (and nested in Stan's subsumption sense)
way of making the division: i.e. into intrinsic, referential, and normative analyses/properties of information. </div>
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<div>Thus you can analyze intrinsic <a href="http://7769domain.com/Ad/GoIEx2/?token=SVpHR1pPRjQ5cjMwK1E1b3NhUVdYZWNCcGxiZlJjUGhlbEFPemROVE1xWnBTaVFOZHBLMURFYk4xRnJ2bW04RVJhYXVNQmp2akwxdDNYSDJrRG12QzdRYXY3SEZ5bWlROW81M1dwRXNhejdJS3FVbjlUNkZ5bzFLR3FwbXNQWWllTGhBR3pCM3RLVExaUnl4V2JIak1lV1lRek50UE9BQkhGanNJcnh0eC9kclFpNHYxdmRSdFV0aUFWcEowdGJJ0" target="_blank">properties</a>
of an informing medium [e.g. Shannon etc etc] irrespective of these other properties, but can't make sense of referential properties [e.g. what something is about, conveys] without considering intrinsic sign vehicle properties, and can't deal with normative
properties [e.g. use value, contribution to function, significance, accuracy, truth] without also considering referential properties [e.g. what it is about].</div>
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<div>In this respect, I am also in agreement with those who have pointed out that whenever we consider referential and normative properties we must also recognize that these are not intrinsic and are interpretation-relative. Nevertheless, these are legitimate
and not merely subjective or nonscientific properties, just not physically intrinsic. I am sympathetic with those among us who want to restrict analysis to intrinsic properties alone, and who defend the unimpeachable value that we have derived from the formal
foundations that Shannon's original analysis initiated, but this should not be used to deny the legitimacy of attempting to develop a more general theory of information that also attempts to discover formal principles underlying these higher level properties
implicit in the concept. </div>
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<div>I take this to be the intent behind Pedro's list. And I think it would be worth asking for each of his points: Which information paradigm within this hoierarchy does it assume?</div>
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<div>— Terry</div>
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<pre cols="72">--
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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. <a value="+34976713526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)
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------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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