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<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear Krassimir, </span><br>
</p>
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<p><br>
Thanks for highlighting that aspect of the subject.</p>
<p><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">However, I'm not sure that “meaning” is enough to separate information from data. </span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">A basic flow of bits can be considered as
meaningless data. But the same flow can give a meaningful sentence once correctly demodulated.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I would say that:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The meaning of a signal does not exist per se. It is agent dependent.<br>
- A signal can be meaningful information created by an agent </span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">(human voice, ant pheromone). <br>
<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:16px">- A signal can be meaningless (thunderstorm noise).</span><br>
<span style="">- A meaning can be generated by an agent receiving the signal (interpretation/meaning generation). <br>
</span>2) A given signal can generate different meanings when received by different agents (a thunderstorm noise generates different meanings for someone walking on the beach or for a person in a house). <br>
3) The domain of efficiency of the meaning should be taken into account (human beings, ant-hill). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">Regarding your positioning of data, I'm not sure to understand your "reflections without meaning". </span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
</span></p>
<div>Could you tell a bit more ?</div>
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All the best<br>
Christophe<br>
<br>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Krassimir Markov <markov@foibg.com><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> samedi 30 septembre 2017 11:20<br>
<b>À :</b> christophe.menant@hotmail.fr<br>
<b>Cc :</b> Foundation of Information Science<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] TR: Principles of IS</font>
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<div class="PlainText">Dear Christophe and FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
I agree with idea of meaning.<br>
<br>
The only what I would to add is the next:<br>
<br>
There are two types of reflections:<br>
<br>
1. Reflections without meaning called DATA;<br>
<br>
2. Reflections with meaning called INFORMATION.<br>
<br>
Friendly greetings<br>
Krassimir<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
Krassimir Markov<br>
Director<br>
ITHEA Institute of Information Theories and Applications<br>
Sofia, Bulgaria<br>
president@ithea.org<br>
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Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
<br>
A hot discussion indeed...<br>
We can all agree that perspectives on information depend on the context.<br>
Physics, mathematics, thermodynamics, biology, psychology, philosophy, AI,<br>
...<br>
<br>
But these many contexts have a common backbone: They are part of the<br>
evolution of our universe and of its understanding, part of its increasing<br>
complexity from the Big Bang to us humans.<br>
And taking evolution as a reading grid allows to begin with the simple.<br>
As proposed in a previous post, we care about information ONLY because it<br>
can be meaningful. Take away the concept of meaning, the one of<br>
information has no reason of existing.<br>
And our great discussions would just not exist. ....<br>
Now, Evolution + Meaning => Evolution of meaning. As already highlighted<br>
this looks to me as important in principles of IS.<br>
As you may remember that there is a presentation on that subject<br>
(<a href=""></a>http://www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/1/3/211, <br>
<a href="https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2</a>)<br>
The evolution of the universe is a great subject where the big questions<br>
are with the transitions: energy=> matter => life => self-consciousness =><br>
...<br>
And I feel that one way to address these transitions is with local<br>
constraints as sources of meaning generation.<br>
Best<br>
<br>
Christophe<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
De : Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> de la part de<br>
tozziarturo@libero.it <tozziarturo@libero.it><br>
Envoyé : vendredi 29 septembre 2017 14:01<br>
À : fis<br>
Objet : Re: [Fis] Principles of IS<br>
<br>
Dear FISers,<br>
Hi!<br>
...a very hot discussion...<br>
I think that it is not useful to talk about Aristotle, Plato and Ortega y<br>
Gasset, it the modern context of information... their phylosophical, not<br>
scientific approach, although marvelous, does not provide insights in a<br>
purely scientific issue such the information we are talking about...<br>
<br>
Once and forever, it must be clear that information is a physical quantity.<br>
Please read (it is not a paper of mine!):<br>
Street S. 2016. Neurobiology as information physics. Frontiers in<br>
Systems neuroscience.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5108784/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5108784/</a><br>
<br>
In short, Street shows how information can be clearly defined in terms of<br>
Bekenstein entropy!<br>
<br>
Sorry,<br>
and BW...<br>
<br>
<br>
Arturo Tozzi<br>
<br>
AA Professor Physics, University North Texas<br>
<br>
Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy<br>
<br>
Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba<br>
<br>
<a href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android<br>
<br>
venerdì, 29 settembre 2017, 01:31PM +02:00 da Rafael Capurro<br>
rafael@capurro.de:<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Pedro,<br>
<br>
thanks for food for thought. When talking about communication we should<br>
not forget that Wiener defines cybernetics as "the theory of messages"<br>
(not: as the theory of information) (Human use of human beings, London<br>
1989, p. 15, p. 77 "cybernetics, or the theory of messages" et passim)<br>
Even for Shannon uses the (undefined) concept of message 'as' what is<br>
transmitted (which is not information) is of paramount importance. And so<br>
also at the level of cell-cell communication.<br>
<br>
The code or the difference message/messenger is, I think, a key for<br>
interpreting biological processes. In this sense, message/messanger are<br>
'archai' (in the Aristotelian) sense for different sciences (no<br>
reductionism if we want to focus on the differences between the<br>
phenomena). 'Archai' are NOT 'general concepts' (as you suggest) but<br>
originating forces that underline the phenomena in their manifestations<br>
'as' this or that.<br>
<br>
>From this perspective, information (following Luhmann) is the process of<br>
interpretation taking place at the receiver. When a cell, excuse me these<br>
thoughts from a non-biologist, receives a message transmitted by a<br>
messenger, then the main issue is from the perspective of the cell, to<br>
interpret this message (with a special address or 'form' supposed to<br>
'in-form' the cell) 'as' being relevant for it. Suppose this<br>
interpretation is wrong in the sense that the message causes death (to the<br>
cell or the whole organism), then the re-cognition system (its immune<br>
system also) of the cell fails. Biological fake news, so to speak, with<br>
mortal consequences due to failures in the communication.<br>
<br>
best<br>
<br>
Rafael<br>
<br>
Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
I also agree with Ji and John Torday about the tight relationship between<br>
information and communication. Actually Principle 5 was stating :<br>
"Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie<br>
the complexity of biological organizations at all scales." However, let me<br>
suggest that we do not enter immediately in the discussion of cell-cell<br>
communication, because it is very important and perhaps demands some more<br>
exchanges on the preliminary info matters.<br>
<br>
May I return to principles and Aristotle? I think that Rafael and Michel<br>
are talking more about principles as general concepts than about<br>
principles as those peculiar foundational items that allow the beginning<br>
of a new scientific discourse. Communication between principles of the<br>
different disciplines is factually impossible (or utterly irrelevant):<br>
think on the connection between Euclidean geometry and politics, biology,<br>
etc. I think Ortega makes right an interpretation about that. When<br>
Aristotle makes the first classification of the sciences, he is continuing<br>
with that very idea. Theoretical sciences, experimental or productive<br>
sciences, and applied or practical sciences--with an emphasis on the<br>
explanatory theoretical power of both physics and mathematics (ehm, Arturo<br>
will agree fully with him). I have revisited my old reading notes and I<br>
think that the Aristotelian confrontation with the Platonic approach to<br>
the unity of knowledge that Ortega comments is extremely interesting for<br>
our current debate on information principles.<br>
<br>
There is another important aspect related to the first three principles in<br>
my original message (see at the bottom). It would be rather strategic to<br>
achieve a consensus on the futility of struggling for a universal<br>
information definition. Then, the tautology of the first principle ("info<br>
is info") is a way to sidestep that definitional aspect. Nevertheless, it<br>
is clear that interesting notions of information may be provided relative<br>
to some particular domains or endeavors. For instance, "propagating<br>
influence" by our colleague Bob Logan, Stuart Kauffman and others, and<br>
many other notions or partial definitions as well--I include my own<br>
"distinction on the adjacent" as valuable for the informational approach<br>
in biology. Is this "indefinability" an undesirable aspect? To put an<br>
example from physics, time appears as the most undefinable of the terms,<br>
but it shows up in almost all equations and theories of physics...<br>
Principle three means that one can do a lot of things with info without<br>
the need of defining it.<br>
<br>
As for the subject that is usually coupled to the info term, as our<br>
discussion advances further, entering the "information flows" will tend to<br>
clarify things. The open-ended relationship with the environment that the<br>
"informational entities" maintain via the channeling of those info<br>
flows--it is a very special coupling indeed--allows these entities the<br>
further channeling of the "energy flows" for self-maintenance. Think on<br>
the living cells and their signaling systems, or think on our "info"<br>
societies. Harold Morowitz's "energy flow in biology" has not been<br>
paralleled yet by a similar "information flow in biology". One is<br>
optimistic that the recent incorporation of John Torday, plus Shungchul Ji<br>
and others, may lead to a thought-collective capable of illuminating the<br>
panorama of biological information.<br>
<br>
(shouldn't we make an effort to incorporate other relevant parties, also<br>
interested in biological information, to this discussion?)<br>
<br>
Best wishes--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 23/09/2017 a las 21:27, Sungchul Ji escribió:<br>
<br>
Hi Fisers,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree.<br>
<br>
Communication may be the key concept in developing a theory of informaton.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Just as it is impossible to define what energy is without defining the<br>
thermodynamic system under consideration (e.g., energy is conserved only<br>
in an isolated system and not in closed or open systems; the Gibbs free<br>
energy content decreases only when a spontaneous process occurs in<br>
non-isolsted systems with a constant temperature and pressure, etc), so it<br>
may be that 'information' cannot be defined rigorously without first<br>
defining the "communication system" under consideration. If this analogy<br>
is true, we can anticipate that, just as there are many different kinds of<br>
energies depending on the characteristics of the thermodynamic systems<br>
involved, so there may be many different kinds of 'informations' depending<br>
on the nature of the communication systems under consideration.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The properties or behaviors of all thermodynamic systems depend on their<br>
environment, and there are three system-environment relations -- (i)<br>
isolated (e.g., the Universe, or the thermos bottle), (ii) closed (e.g.,<br>
refriegerator), and (iii) open (e.g., the biosphere, living cells).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is interesting to note that, all communication systems (e.g., cell,<br>
organs, animals, humans) may embody ITR (Irreducible Triadic Relation)<br>
which I found it convenient to represent diagramamatically using a 3-node<br>
network arrows as shown below:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
f g<br>
<br>
A ----------> B ---------> C<br>
| <br>
^<br>
| <br>
|<br>
|__________________|<br>
h<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Figure 1. The Irreducible Triadic Relation (ITR) of C. S. Peirce<br>
(1839-21914) represented as a 3-node, closed and directed network. The<br>
arrows form the commutative triangle of category theory, i.e., operations<br>
f followed by g leads to the same result as operation h, here denoted as<br>
fxg = h.<br>
<br>
f = information production; g = information interpretation; h =<br>
correspondence or information flow. Please note that Processes f and g<br>
are driven by exergonic physicochemical processes, and h requires a<br>
pre-existing code or language that acts as the rule of mapping A and C.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Again, just as generations of thermodynamicists in the 19-20th centuries<br>
have defined various kinds of "energies" (enthalpy, Helmholtz free energy,<br>
Gibbs free energy) applicable to different kinds of thermodynamic systems,<br>
so 'information scientists' of the 21st century may have the golden<br>
opportunity to define as many kinds of 'informations' as needed for the<br>
different kinds of "communcation systems" of their interest, some examples<br>
of which being presented in Table 1.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Table 1. A 'parametric' definition of information based on the values of<br>
the three nodes<br>
of the ITR, Figure 1.<br>
<br>
________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Communication system A B <br>
C<br>
(Information)<br>
<br>
________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Cells DNA/RNA <br>
Proteins Chemcal reactions<br>
(Biological informations) <br>
or chemical waves<br>
<br>
_________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Humans Sender <br>
Message Receiver<br>
(Linguistic informations)<br>
<br>
_________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Signs Object <br>
Representamen Interpretant<br>
(Semiotic informations, or<br>
<br>
'Universal informations' (?))<br>
__________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
With all the best.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sung<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
From: Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of JOHN TORDAY<br>
<jtorday@ucla.edu><br>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:44:33 AM<br>
To: fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
Subject: [Fis] Principles of IS<br>
<br>
Dear Fis, I am a newcomer to this discussion, but suffice it to say that I<br>
have spent the last 20 years trying to understand how and why physiology<br>
has evolved. I stumbled upon your website because Pedro Maijuan had<br>
reviewed a paper of ours on 'ambiguity' that was recently published in<br>
Progr Biophys Mol Biol July 22, 2017 fiy.<br>
Cell-cell communication is the basis for molecular<br>
embryology/morphogenesis. This may seem tangential at best to your<br>
discussion of Information Science, but if you'll bear with me I will get<br>
to the point. In my (humble) opinion, information is the 'language' of<br>
evolution, but communication of information as a process is the mechanism.<br>
In my reduction of evolution as communication, it comes down to the<br>
interface between physics and biology, which was formed when the first<br>
cell delineated its internal environment (Claude Bernard, Walter B Cannon)<br>
from the outside environment. From that point on, the dialog between the<br>
environment and the organism has been on-going, the organism internalizing<br>
the external environment and compartmentalizing it to form what we<br>
recognize as physiology (Endosymbiosis Theory). Much of this thinking has<br>
come from new scientific evidence for Lamarckian epigenetic inheritance<br>
from my laboratory and that of many others- how the organism internalizes<br>
information from the environment by chemically changing the information in<br>
DNA in the egg and sperm, and then in the zygote and offspring, across<br>
generations. So here we have a fundamental reason to reconsider what<br>
'information' actually means biologically. If you are interested in any of<br>
my publications on this subject please let me know (jtorday@ucla.edu).<br>
Thank you for any interest you may have in this alternative way of<br>
thinking about information, communication and evolution.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Fis mailing list<br>
Fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
As promised herewith the "10 principles of information science". A couple<br>
of previous comments may be in order.<br>
First, what is in general the role of principles in science? I was<br>
motivated by the unfinished work of philosopher Ortega y Gasset, "The idea<br>
of principle in Leibniz and the evolution of deductive theory"<br>
(posthumously published in 1958). Our tentative information science seems<br>
to be very different from other sciences, rather multifarious in<br>
appearance and concepts, and cavalierly moving from scale to scale. What<br>
could be the specific role of principles herein? Rather than opening<br>
homogeneous realms for conceptual development, these information<br>
principles would appear as a sort of "portals" that connect with essential<br>
topics of other disciplines in the different organization layers, but at<br>
the same time they should try to be consistent with each other and provide<br>
a coherent vision of the information world.<br>
And second, about organizing the present discussion, I bet I was too<br>
optimistic with the commentators scheme. In any case, for having a first<br>
glance on the whole scheme, the opinions of philosophers would be very<br>
interesting. In order to warm up the discussion, may I ask John Collier,<br>
Joseph Brenner and Rafael Capurro to send some initial comments /<br>
criticisms? Later on, if the commentators idea flies, Koichiro Matsuno and<br>
Wolfgang Hofkirchner would be very valuable voices to put a perspectival<br>
end to this info principles discussion (both attended the Madrid bygone<br>
FIS 1994 conference)...<br>
But this is FIS list, unpredictable in between the frozen states and the<br>
chaotic states! So, everybody is invited to get ahead at his own, with the<br>
only customary limitation of two messages per week.<br>
<br>
Best wishes, have a good weekend --Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
10 PRINCIPLES OF INFORMATION SCIENCE<br>
<br>
1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.<br>
<br>
2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows.<br>
<br>
3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed<br>
(either computationally or non-computationally).<br>
<br>
4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production<br>
processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying<br>
energy flows.<br>
<br>
5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie<br>
the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.<br>
<br>
6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication<br>
exchanges of the human species--and constitutes the core of its "social<br>
nature."<br>
<br>
7. Human information may be systematically converted into efficient<br>
knowledge, by following the "knowledge instinct" and further up by<br>
applying rigorous methodologies.<br>
<br>
8. Human cognitive limitations on knowledge accumulation are partially<br>
overcome via the social organization of "knowledge ecologies."<br>
<br>
<br>
9. Knowledge circulates and recombines socially, in a continuous<br>
actualization that involves "creative destruction" of fields and<br>
disciplines: the intellectual Ars Magna.<br>
<br>
<br>
10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on the information<br>
and knowledge flows that support individual lives, with profound<br>
consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social<br>
governance.<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<br>
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0<br>
50009 Zaragoza, Spain<br>
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)<br>
pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es<br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<br>
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0<br>
50009 Zaragoza, Spain<br>
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)<br>
pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es<br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
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-- <br>
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro<br>
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany<br>
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics<br>
(<a href="http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org">http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org</a>)<br>
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for<br>
Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University<br>
of Pretoria, South Africa.<br>
Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE)<br>
(<a href="http://icie.zkm.de">http://icie.zkm.de</a>)<br>
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE)<br>
(<a href="http://www.i-r-i-e.net">http://www.i-r-i-e.net</a>)<br>
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany<br>
E-Mail: rafael@capurro.de<br>
Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)<br>
Homepage: <a href="http://www.capurro.de">www.capurro.de</a><br>
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