<HTML><BODY><p style="margin-top: 0px;" dir="ltr">Dear FISers,<br> Hi!<br> ...a very hot discussion...<br> I think that it is not useful to talk about Aristotle, Plato and Ortega y Gasset, it the modern context of information... their phylosophical, not scientific approach, although marvelous, does not provide insights in a purely scientific issue such the information we are talking about... </p>
<p dir="ltr">Once and forever, it must be clear that information is a physical quantity. <br> Please read (it is not a paper of mine!): <br> Street S. 2016. Neurobiology as information physics. Frontiers in Systems neuroscience.</p>
<p dir="ltr">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5108784/</p>
<p dir="ltr">In short, Street shows how information can be clearly defined in terms of Bekenstein entropy!</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sorry, <br> and BW...<br></p>
<p dir="ltr">Arturo Tozzi</p>
<p dir="ltr">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</p>
<p dir="ltr">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</p>
<p dir="ltr">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</p>
<p dir="ltr">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/ <br></p>
<div id="mail-app-auto-default-signature">
<p dir="ltr">--<br> Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</p>
</div>venerdì, 29 settembre 2017, 01:31PM +02:00 da Rafael Capurro <a href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de">rafael@capurro.de</a>:<br><br><blockquote id="mail-app-auto-quote" style="border-left:1px solid #85AF31; margin:0px 0px 0px 10px; padding:0px 0px 0px 10px;" cite="15066848280000031545">
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<div >Dear Pedro,<br>
<br>
thanks for food for thought. When talking about communication we
should not forget that Wiener defines cybernetics as "the theory
of messages" (not: as the theory of information) (Human use of
human beings, London 1989, p. 15, p. 77 "cybernetics, or the
theory of messages" et passim) Even for Shannon uses the
(undefined) concept of message 'as' what is transmitted (which is
not information) is of paramount importance. And so also at the
level of cell-cell communication. <br>
<br>
The code or the difference message/messenger is, I think, a key
for interpreting biological processes. In this sense,
message/messanger are 'archai' (in the Aristotelian) sense for
different sciences (no reductionism if we want to focus on the
differences between the phenomena). 'Archai' are NOT 'general
concepts' (as you suggest) but originating forces that underline
the phenomena in their manifestations 'as' this or that.<br>
<br>
From this perspective, information (following Luhmann) is the
process of interpretation taking place at the receiver. When a
cell, excuse me these thoughts from a non-biologist, receives a
message transmitted by a messenger, then the main issue is from
the perspective of the cell, to interpret this message (with a
special address or 'form' supposed to 'in-form' the cell) 'as'
being relevant for it. Suppose this interpretation is wrong in the
sense that the message causes death (to the cell or the whole
organism), then the re-cognition system (its immune system also)
of the cell fails. Biological fake news, so to speak, with mortal
consequences due to failures in the communication.<br>
<br>
best<br>
<br>
Rafael<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:e3322e80-f6fd-724d-b93c-754951068f89@aragon.es" type="cite">
<div >Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
I also agree with Ji and John Torday about the tight
relationship between information and communication. Actually
Principle 5 was stating : "Communication/information exchanges
among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological
organizations at all scales." However, let me suggest that we do
not enter immediately in the discussion of cell-cell
communication, because it is very important and perhaps demands
some more exchanges on the preliminary info matters. <br>
<br>
May I return to principles and Aristotle? I think that Rafael
and Michel are talking more about principles as general concepts
than about principles as those peculiar foundational items that
allow the beginning of a new scientific discourse. Communication
between principles of the different disciplines is factually
impossible (or utterly irrelevant): think on the connection
between Euclidean geometry and politics, biology, etc. I think
Ortega makes right an interpretation about that. When Aristotle
makes the first classification of the sciences, he is continuing
with that very idea. Theoretical sciences, experimental or
productive sciences, and applied or practical sciences--with an
emphasis on the explanatory theoretical power of both physics
and mathematics (ehm, Arturo will agree fully with him). I have
revisited my old reading notes and I think that the Aristotelian
confrontation with the Platonic approach to the unity of
knowledge that Ortega comments is extremely interesting for our
current debate on information principles. <br>
<br>
There is another important aspect related to the first three
principles in my original message (see at the bottom). It would
be rather strategic to achieve a consensus on the futility of
struggling for a universal information definition. Then, the
tautology of the first principle ("info is info") is a way to
sidestep that definitional aspect. Nevertheless, it is clear
that interesting notions of information may be provided relative
to some particular domains or endeavors. For instance,
"propagating influence" by our colleague Bob Logan, Stuart
Kauffman and others, and many other notions or partial
definitions as well--I include my own "distinction on the
adjacent" as valuable for the informational approach in biology.
Is this "indefinability" an undesirable aspect? To put an
example from physics, time appears as the most undefinable of
the terms, but it shows up in almost all equations and theories
of physics... Principle three means that one can do a lot of
things with info without the need of defining it. <br>
<br>
As for the subject that is usually coupled to the info term, as
our discussion advances further, entering the "information
flows" will tend to clarify things. The open-ended relationship
with the environment that the "informational entities" maintain
via the channeling of those info flows--it is a very special
coupling indeed--allows these entities the further channeling of
the "energy flows" for self-maintenance. Think on the living
cells and their signaling systems, or think on our "info"
societies. Harold Morowitz's "energy flow in biology" has not
been paralleled yet by a similar "information flow in biology".
One is optimistic that the recent incorporation of John Torday,
plus Shungchul Ji and others, may lead to a thought-collective
capable of illuminating the panorama of biological information.
<br>
<br>
(shouldn't we make an effort to incorporate other relevant
parties, also interested in biological information, to this
discussion?)<br>
<br>
Best wishes--Pedro<font size="+2"><br>
</font><br>
El 23/09/2017 a las 21:27, Sungchul Ji escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:BN6PR1401MB1921106C370DEC1597593F8F93640@BN6PR1401MB1921.namprd14.prod.outlook.com" type="cite">
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<p>Hi Fisers,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>Communication may be the key concept in developing a theory
of informaton.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Just as it is impossible to define what energy is without
defining the thermodynamic system under consideration (e.g.,
energy is conserved only in an isolated system and not in
closed or open systems; the Gibbs free energy content
decreases only when a spontaneous process occurs in
non-isolsted systems with a constant temperature and
pressure, etc), so it may be that 'information' cannot be
defined rigorously without first defining the
"communication system" under consideration. If this
analogy is true, we can anticipate that, just as there are
many different kinds of energies depending on the
characteristics of the thermodynamic systems involved, so
there may be many different kinds of 'informations'
depending on the nature of the communication systems under
consideration.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The properties or behaviors of all thermodynamic systems
depend on their environment, and there are three
system-environment relations -- (i) isolated (e.g., the
Universe, or the thermos bottle), (ii) closed (e.g.,
refriegerator), and (iii) open (e.g., the biosphere, living
cells).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It is interesting to note that, all communication systems
(e.g., cell, organs, animals, humans) may embody ITR
(Irreducible Triadic Relation) which I found it convenient
to represent diagramamatically using a 3-node network
arrows as shown below:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> <i> f
g</i></p>
<p> <b>A</b>
----------> <b>B </b>---------> <b>C</b><br>
|
^<br>
|
|<br>
|__________________|<br>
<i>h</i></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Figure 1. The Irreducible Triadic Relation (<b>ITR</b>) of
C. S. Peirce (1839-21914) represented as a 3-node, closed
and directed network. The arrows form the <i>commutative
triangle </i>of category theory, i.e., operations <i>f</i>
followed by <i>g</i> leads to the same result as operation
<i>h</i>, here denoted as <i>fxg = h.</i> </p>
<p><i>f</i> = information production; <i>g</i> = information
interpretation; <i>h</i> = correspondence or information
flow. Please note that Processes f and g are driven by
exergonic physicochemical processes, and <i>h</i> requires
a pre-existing code or language that acts as the rule of
mapping A and C.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Again, just as generations of thermodynamicists in the
19-20th centuries have defined various kinds of "energies"
(enthalpy, Helmholtz free energy, Gibbs free
energy) applicable to different kinds of thermodynamic
systems, so 'information scientists' of the 21st century
may have the golden opportunity to define as many kinds of
'informations' as needed for the different kinds of
"communcation systems" of their interest, some examples of
which being presented in Table 1. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
</p>
<p>Table 1. A 'parametric' definition of information based on
the values of the three nodes <br>
of the <b>ITR, </b>Figure 1. </p>
<p>________________________________________________________________________</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><b>Communication system</b> <b>A
B C </b><br>
(Information)<b> </b>
</p>
<p>________________________________________________________________________</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><i>Cells </i>
DNA/RNA Proteins Chemcal
reactions <br>
(Biological informations)
or chemical
waves</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">_________________________________________________________________________</span><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><i>Humans </i>
Sender Message Receiver<br>
(Linguistic informations)</p>
<p>_________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
</p>
<p><i>Signs </i>
Object Representamen Interpretant<br>
(Semiotic informations, or </p>
<p>'Universal informations' (?))<br>
__________________________________________________________________________</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>With all the best.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Sung</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fis
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" ><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
on behalf of JOHN TORDAY <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank" ><jtorday@ucla.edu></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:44:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" >fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] Principles of IS</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear Fis, I am a newcomer to this discussion,
but suffice it to say that I have spent the last 20 years
trying to understand how and why physiology has evolved. I
stumbled upon your website because Pedro Maijuan had
reviewed a paper of ours on 'ambiguity' that was recently
published in Progr Biophys Mol Biol July 22, 2017 fiy. <br>
Cell-cell communication is the basis for molecular
embryology/morphogenesis. This may seem tangential at best
to your discussion of Information Science, but if you'll
bear with me I will get to the point. In my (humble)
opinion, information is the 'language' of evolution, but
communication of information as a process is the mechanism.
In my reduction of evolution as communication, it comes down
to the interface between physics and biology, which was
formed when the first cell delineated its internal
environment (Claude Bernard, Walter B Cannon) from the
outside environment. From that point on, the dialog between
the environment and the organism has been on-going, the
organism internalizing the external environment and
compartmentalizing it to form what we recognize as
physiology (Endosymbiosis Theory). Much of this thinking has
come from new scientific evidence for Lamarckian epigenetic
inheritance from my laboratory and that of many others- how
the organism internalizes information from the environment
by chemically changing the information in DNA in the egg and
sperm, and then in the zygote and offspring, across
generations. So here we have a fundamental reason to
reconsider what 'information' actually means biologically.
If you are interested in any of my publications on this
subject please let me know (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu" target="_blank" >jtorday@ucla.edu</a>).
Thank you for any interest you may have in this alternative
way of thinking about information, communication and
evolution.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<blockquote
cite="mid:24f7e2aa-a275-0ede-d401-550a3a8aa5fc@aragon.es" type="cite"> Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
As promised herewith the "10 principles of information science".
A couple of previous comments may be in order. <br>
First, what is in general the role of principles in science? I
was motivated by the unfinished work of philosopher Ortega y
Gasset, "The idea of principle in Leibniz and the evolution of
deductive theory" (posthumously published in 1958). Our
tentative information science seems to be very different from
other sciences, rather multifarious in appearance and concepts,
and cavalierly moving from scale to scale. What could be the
specific role of principles herein? Rather than opening
homogeneous realms for conceptual development, these information
principles would appear as a sort of "portals" that connect with
essential topics of other disciplines in the different
organization layers, but at the same time they should try to be
consistent with each other and provide a coherent vision of the
information world.<br>
And second, about organizing the present discussion, I bet I was
too optimistic with the commentators scheme. In any case, for
having a first glance on the whole scheme, the opinions of
philosophers would be very interesting. In order to warm up the
discussion, may I ask John Collier, Joseph Brenner and Rafael
Capurro to send some initial comments / criticisms? Later on, if
the commentators idea flies, Koichiro Matsuno and Wolfgang
Hofkirchner would be very valuable voices to put a perspectival
end to this info principles discussion (both attended the Madrid
bygone FIS 1994 conference)... <br>
But this is FIS list, unpredictable in between the frozen states
and the chaotic states! So, everybody is invited to get ahead at
his own, with the only customary limitation of two messages per
week.<br>
<br>
Best wishes, have a good weekend --Pedro<br>
<br>
<p><b>10 </b><b>PRINCIPLES OF INFORMATION SCIENCE</b></p>
<p>1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.</p>
<p>2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns,
messages, or flows.</p>
<p>3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can
be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).</p>
<p>4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's
self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing
up with the accompanying energy flows.</p>
<p>5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive
life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological
organizations at all scales.</p>
<p>6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential
communication exchanges of the human species--and constitutes
the core of its "social nature." </p>
<p>7. Human information may be systematically converted into
efficient knowledge, by following the "knowledge instinct" and
further up by applying rigorous methodologies.</p>
<p>8. Human cognitive limitations on knowledge accumulation are
partially overcome via the social organization of "knowledge
ecologies." <br>
</p>
<p>9. Knowledge circulates and recombines socially, in a
continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction"
of fields and disciplines: the intellectual <i>Ars Magna.</i>
<br>
</p>
<p>10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on the
information and knowledge flows that support individual lives,
with profound consequences for scientific-philosophical
practice and for social governance. <br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank" >pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank" >http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
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</p>
<pre cols="72">--
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (<a href="http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org" target="_blank" >http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org</a>)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (<a href="http://icie.zkm.de" target="_blank" >http://icie.zkm.de</a>)
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (<a href="http://www.i-r-i-e.net" target="_blank" >http://www.i-r-i-e.net</a>)
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
E-Mail: <a href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de" target="_blank" >rafael@capurro.de</a>
Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
Homepage: <a href="http://www.capurro.de" target="_blank" >www.capurro.de</a>
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