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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
I also agree with Ji and John Torday about the tight relationship
between information and communication. Actually Principle 5 was
stating : "Communication/information exchanges among adaptive
life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at
all scales." However, let me suggest that we do not enter
immediately in the discussion of cell-cell communication, because
it is very important and perhaps demands some more exchanges on
the preliminary info matters. <br>
<br>
May I return to principles and Aristotle? I think that Rafael and
Michel are talking more about principles as general concepts than
about principles as those peculiar foundational items that allow
the beginning of a new scientific discourse. Communication between
principles of the different disciplines is factually impossible
(or utterly irrelevant): think on the connection between Euclidean
geometry and politics, biology, etc. I think Ortega makes right an
interpretation about that. When Aristotle makes the first
classification of the sciences, he is continuing with that very
idea. Theoretical sciences, experimental or productive sciences,
and applied or practical sciences--with an emphasis on the
explanatory theoretical power of both physics and mathematics
(ehm, Arturo will agree fully with him). I have revisited my old
reading notes and I think that the Aristotelian confrontation with
the Platonic approach to the unity of knowledge that Ortega
comments is extremely interesting for our current debate on
information principles. <br>
<br>
There is another important aspect related to the first three
principles in my original message (see at the bottom). It would be
rather strategic to achieve a consensus on the futility of
struggling for a universal information definition. Then, the
tautology of the first principle ("info is info") is a way to
sidestep that definitional aspect. Nevertheless, it is clear that
interesting notions of information may be provided relative to
some particular domains or endeavors. For instance, "propagating
influence" by our colleague Bob Logan, Stuart Kauffman and others,
and many other notions or partial definitions as well--I include
my own "distinction on the adjacent" as valuable for the
informational approach in biology. Is this "indefinability" an
undesirable aspect? To put an example from physics, time appears
as the most undefinable of the terms, but it shows up in almost
all equations and theories of physics... Principle three means
that one can do a lot of things with info without the need of
defining it. <br>
<br>
As for the subject that is usually coupled to the info term, as
our discussion advances further, entering the "information flows"
will tend to clarify things. The open-ended relationship with the
environment that the "informational entities" maintain via the
channeling of those info flows--it is a very special coupling
indeed--allows these entities the further channeling of the
"energy flows" for self-maintenance. Think on the living cells and
their signaling systems, or think on our "info" societies. Harold
Morowitz's "energy flow in biology" has not been paralleled yet by
a similar "information flow in biology". One is optimistic that
the recent incorporation of John Torday, plus Shungchul Ji and
others, may lead to a thought-collective capable of illuminating
the panorama of biological information. <br>
<br>
(shouldn't we make an effort to incorporate other relevant
parties, also interested in biological information, to this
discussion?)<br>
<br>
Best wishes--Pedro<font size="+2"><br>
</font><br>
El 23/09/2017 a las 21:27, Sungchul Ji escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:BN6PR1401MB1921106C370DEC1597593F8F93640@BN6PR1401MB1921.namprd14.prod.outlook.com"
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style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;"
dir="ltr">
<p>Hi Fisers,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>Communication may be the key concept in developing a theory
of informaton.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Just as it is impossible to define what energy is without
defining the thermodynamic system under consideration (e.g.,
energy is conserved only in an isolated system and not in
closed or open systems; the Gibbs free energy content
decreases only when a spontaneous process occurs in
non-isolsted systems with a constant temperature and pressure,
etc), so it may be that 'information' cannot be defined
rigorously without first defining the "communication system"
under consideration. If this analogy is true, we can
anticipate that, just as there are many different kinds of
energies depending on the characteristics of the thermodynamic
systems involved, so there may be many different kinds of
'informations' depending on the nature of the communication
systems under consideration.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The properties or behaviors of all thermodynamic systems
depend on their environment, and there are three
system-environment relations -- (i) isolated (e.g., the
Universe, or the thermos bottle), (ii) closed (e.g.,
refriegerator), and (iii) open (e.g., the biosphere, living
cells).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It is interesting to note that, all communication systems
(e.g., cell, organs, animals, humans) may embody ITR
(Irreducible Triadic Relation) which I found it convenient to
represent diagramamatically using a 3-node network
arrows as shown below:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> <i> f
g</i></p>
<p> <b>A</b> ---------->
<b>B </b>---------> <b>C</b><br>
|
^<br>
|
|<br>
|__________________|<br>
<i>h</i></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Figure 1. The Irreducible Triadic Relation (<b>ITR</b>) of
C. S. Peirce (1839-21914) represented as a 3-node, closed
and directed network. The arrows form the <i>commutative
triangle
</i>of category theory, i.e., operations <i>f</i> followed by
<i>g</i> leads to the same result as operation
<i>h</i>, here denoted as <i>fxg = h.</i> </p>
<p><i>f</i> = information production; <i>g</i> = information
interpretation; <i>h</i> = correspondence or information
flow. Please note that Processes f and g are driven by
exergonic physicochemical processes, and
<i>h</i> requires a pre-existing code or language that acts as
the rule of mapping A and C.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Again, just as generations of thermodynamicists in the
19-20th centuries have defined various kinds of "energies"
(enthalpy, Helmholtz free energy, Gibbs free
energy) applicable to different kinds of thermodynamic
systems, so 'information scientists' of the 21st century may
have the golden opportunity to define as many kinds of
'informations' as needed for the different kinds of
"communcation systems" of their interest, some examples of
which being presented in Table 1. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
</p>
<p>Table 1. A 'parametric' definition of information based on
the values of the three nodes
<br>
of the <b>ITR, </b>Figure 1. </p>
<p>________________________________________________________________________</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><b>Communication system</b> <b>A
B C
</b><br>
(Information)<b> </b>
</p>
<p>________________________________________________________________________</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><i>Cells </i>
DNA/RNA Proteins Chemcal reactions
<br>
(Biological informations)
or chemical
waves</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">_________________________________________________________________________</span><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><i>Humans </i>
Sender Message Receiver<br>
(Linguistic informations)</p>
<p>_________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
</p>
<p><i>Signs </i>
Object Representamen Interpretant<br>
(Semiotic informations, or </p>
<p>'Universal informations' (?))<br>
__________________________________________________________________________</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>With all the best.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Sung</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fis
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> on behalf of JOHN TORDAY
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu"><jtorday@ucla.edu></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 23, 2017 10:44:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] Principles of IS</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear Fis, I am a newcomer to this discussion, but
suffice it to say that I have spent the last 20 years trying
to understand how and why physiology has evolved. I stumbled
upon your website because Pedro Maijuan had reviewed a paper
of ours on 'ambiguity' that was recently published in Progr
Biophys Mol Biol July 22, 2017 fiy.
<br>
Cell-cell communication is the basis for molecular
embryology/morphogenesis. This may seem tangential at best to
your discussion of Information Science, but if you'll bear
with me I will get to the point. In my (humble) opinion,
information is the 'language' of evolution, but communication
of information as a process is the mechanism. In my reduction
of evolution as communication, it comes down to the interface
between physics and biology, which was formed when the first
cell delineated its internal environment (Claude Bernard,
Walter B Cannon) from the outside environment. From that point
on, the dialog between the environment and the organism has
been on-going, the organism internalizing the external
environment and compartmentalizing it to form what we
recognize as physiology (Endosymbiosis Theory). Much of this
thinking has come from new scientific evidence for Lamarckian
epigenetic inheritance from my laboratory and that of many
others- how the organism internalizes information from the
environment by chemically changing the information in DNA in
the egg and sperm, and then in the zygote and offspring,
across generations. So here we have a fundamental reason to
reconsider what 'information' actually means biologically. If
you are interested in any of my publications on this subject
please let me know (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu">jtorday@ucla.edu</a>). Thank
you for any interest you may have in this alternative way of
thinking about information, communication and evolution.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:24f7e2aa-a275-0ede-d401-550a3a8aa5fc@aragon.es"
type="cite"> Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
As promised herewith the "10 principles of information science". A
couple of previous comments may be in order. <br>
First, what is in general the role of principles in science? I was
motivated by the unfinished work of philosopher Ortega y Gasset,
"The idea of principle in Leibniz and the evolution of deductive
theory" (posthumously published in 1958). Our tentative
information science seems to be very different from other
sciences, rather multifarious in appearance and concepts, and
cavalierly moving from scale to scale. What could be the specific
role of principles herein? Rather than opening homogeneous realms
for conceptual development, these information principles would
appear as a sort of "portals" that connect with essential topics
of other disciplines in the different organization layers, but at
the same time they should try to be consistent with each other and
provide a coherent vision of the information world.<br>
And second, about organizing the present discussion, I bet I was
too optimistic with the commentators scheme. In any case, for
having a first glance on the whole scheme, the opinions of
philosophers would be very interesting. In order to warm up the
discussion, may I ask John Collier, Joseph Brenner and Rafael
Capurro to send some initial comments / criticisms? Later on, if
the commentators idea flies, Koichiro Matsuno and Wolfgang
Hofkirchner would be very valuable voices to put a perspectival
end to this info principles discussion (both attended the Madrid
bygone FIS 1994 conference)... <br>
But this is FIS list, unpredictable in between the frozen states
and the chaotic states! So, everybody is invited to get ahead at
his own, with the only customary limitation of two messages per
week.<br>
<br>
Best wishes, have a good weekend --Pedro<br>
<br>
<p><b>10 </b><b>PRINCIPLES OF INFORMATION SCIENCE</b></p>
<p>1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.</p>
<p>2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns,
messages, or flows.</p>
<p>3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be
processed (either computationally or non-computationally).</p>
<p>4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's
self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up
with the accompanying energy flows.</p>
<p>5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive
life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations
at all scales.</p>
<p>6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential
communication exchanges of the human species--and constitutes
the core of its "social nature." </p>
<p>7. Human information may be systematically converted into
efficient knowledge, by following the "knowledge instinct" and
further up by applying rigorous methodologies.</p>
<p>8. Human cognitive limitations on knowledge accumulation are
partially overcome via the social organization of "knowledge
ecologies." <br>
</p>
<p>9. Knowledge circulates and recombines socially, in a
continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of
fields and disciplines: the intellectual <i>Ars Magna.</i> <br>
</p>
<p>10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on the
information and knowledge flows that support individual lives,
with profound consequences for scientific-philosophical practice
and for social governance. <br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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