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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">To ALL discussants:<br>
<br>
Please, take into account that posting in this list is restricted
to two messages per week. It is the Second Rule of our info
club... <br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
Fis List moderator<br>
<br>
El 30/03/2017 a las 11:12, John Collier escribió:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear
Hector,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Personally
I agree that algorithmic information theory and the related
concepts of randomness and Bennett’s logical depth are the
best way to go. I have used them in many of my own works.
When I met Chaitin a few years back we talked mostly about
how unrewarding and controversial our work on information
theory has been. When I did an article on information for
the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy it was rejected in
part becausewe of fierce divisions between supporters of
Chaitin and supporters of Kolmogorov! The stuff I put in on
Spencer Brown was criticized because “he was some sort of
Buddhist, wasn’t he?” It sounds like you have run into
similar problems. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">That
is why I suggested a realignment of what this group should
be aiming for. I think the end result would justify our
thinking, and your work certainly furthers it. But it does
need to be worked out. Personally, I don’t have the patience
for it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">John
Collier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Emeritus
Professor and Senior Research Associate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Philosophy,
University of KwaZulu-Natal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"><span
style="color:#0563C1">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> Hector Zenil [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:hzenilc@gmail.com">mailto:hzenilc@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 30 March 2017 10:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Collier <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za"><Collierj@ukzn.ac.za></a>;
fis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Causation is transfer of
information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear
John et al. Some comments below:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:47 AM,
John Collier <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">Collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">I
think we should try to categorize and relate
information concepts rather than trying to
decide which is the “right one”. I have tried
to do this by looking at various uses of
information in science, and argue that the
main uses show progressive containment:
</span><span style="color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC/article/view/278/269"
target="_blank">Kinds of Information in
Scientific Use</a>. 2011. cognition,
communication, co-operation. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC/issue/view/22"
target="_blank">Vol 9, No 2</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black">There are various
mathematical formulations of information as
well, and I think the same strategy is
required here. Sometimes they are equivalent,
sometimes close to equivalent, and sometimes
quite different in form and motivation. Work
on the foundations of information science
needs to make these relations clear. A few
years back (more than a decade) a
mathematician on a list (newsgroup) argued
that there were dozens of different
mathematical definitions of information. I
thought this was a bit excessive, and argued
with him about convergences, but he was right
that they were mathematically different. We
need to look at information theory structures
and their models to see where they are
equivalent and where (and if) they overlap.
Different mathematical forms can have models
in common, sometimes all of them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The agreement among professional
mathematicians is that the correct definition of
randomness as opposed to information is the Martin
Loef definition for the infinite asymptotic case,
and Kolmogorov-Chaitin for the finite case.
Algorithmic probability (Solomonoff, Levin) is the
theory of optimal induction and thus provides a
formal universal meaning to the value of
information. Then the general agreement is also that
Bennett's logical depth separates the concept of
randomness from information structure. No much
controversy in in there on the nature of classical
information as algorithmic information. Notice that
'algorithmic information' is not just one more
definiton of information, IS the definition of
mathematical information (again, by way of defining
algorithmic randomness). So adding 'algorithmic' to
information is not to talk about a special case that
can then be ignored by philosophy of information. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All the above builds on (and well
beyond) Shannon Entropy, which is not even very
properly discussed in philosophy of information
beyond its most basic definition (we rarely, if
ever, see discussions around mutual information,
conditional information, Judea Pearl's
interventionist approach and counterfactuals, etc),
let alone anything of the more advanced areas
mentioned above, or a discussion on the now well
established area of quantum information that is also
comletely ignored. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is like trying to do
philosophy of cosmology discussing Gamow and Hubble
but ignoring relativity, or trying to do philosophy
of language today discussing Locke and Hume but not
Chomsky, or doing philosophy of mind discussing the
findings of Ramon y Cajal and claiming that his
theories are not enough to explain the brain. It is
some sort of strawman fallacy contructing an
opponent living in the 40s to claim in 2017 that it
fails at explaining everything about information.
Shannon Entropy is a counting-symbol function, with
interesting applications, Shannon himself knew it.
It makes no sense to expect a counting-symbol
function to tell anything interesting about
information after 60 years. I refer again to my
Entropy deceiving paper:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1608.05972">https://arxiv.org/abs/1608.05972</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not blame philosophers on
this one, phycisists seem to assign Shannon Entropy
some mystical power, this is why I wrote a paper
proving how it cannot be used in graph complexity as
some phycists have recently suggested (e.g. Bianconi
via Barabasi). But this is the kind of discussion
that we should have having, telling phycisists not
to go back to the 40s when it comes to
characterizing new objects. If Shannon Entropy fails
at characterizing sequences it will not work for
other objects (graphs!).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the field of philosophy
of information cannot get serious until serious
discussion on topics above starts to take place.
Right now the field is small and carried out by a
few mathematicians and phycisists. Philosophers are
left behind because they are choosing to ignore all
the theory developed in the last 50 to 60 years. I
hope this is taken constructively. I think we
philosophers need to step up, if we are not be
leading the discussion at least we should not be 50
or 60 years behind. I have tried to to close that
gap but usually I also get convenently ignored =)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">I
have argued that information originates in
symmetry breaking (making a difference, if you
like, but I see it as a dynamic process rather
than merely as a representation) </span><span
style="color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier/papers/infsym.pdf" target="_blank">Information
Originates in Symmetry Breaking</a> (<i>Symmetry</i> 1996).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very nice paper. I agree on
symmetry breaking, I have similar ideas:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1210.1572">https://arxiv.org/abs/1210.1572</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(published in the journal of
Natural Computing)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On how symmetric rules can
produce assymetric information.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hector Zenil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.hectorzenil.net/">http://www.hectorzenil.net/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:black">I adopt what I call
dynamical realism, that anything that is real
is either dynamical or interpretable in
dynamical terms. Not everyone will agree.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">John
Collier</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Emeritus
Professor and Senior Research Associate</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Philosophy,
University of KwaZulu-Natal</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#0563C1">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> Guy A Hoelzer [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hoelzer@unr.edu"
target="_blank">hoelzer@unr.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 29 March 2017
1:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sungchul Ji <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu"
target="_blank">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>>;
Terry Deacon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu"
target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>>;
John Collier <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za"
target="_blank">Collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>>;
Foundations of Information Science
Information Science <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Causation is
transfer of information<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Greetings
all,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It
seems that the indigestion from
competing definitions of ‘information’
is hard to resolve, and I agree with
Terry and others that a broad definition
is preferable. I also think it is not a
problem to allow multiple definitions
that can be operationally adopted in
appropriate contexts. In some respects,
apparently competing definitions are
actually reinforcing. For example, I
prefer to use ‘information’ to describe
any difference (a distinction or
contrast), and it is also true that a
subset of all differences are ones that
‘make a difference’ to an observer.
When we restrict ‘information’ to
differences that make a difference it
becomes inherently subjective. That is
certainly not a problem if you are
interested in subjectivity, but it would
eliminate the rationality of studying
objective ‘information’, which I think
holds great promise for understanding
dynamical systems. I don’t see any
conflict between ‘information’ as
negentropy and ‘information’ as a basis
for decision making. On the other hand,
semantics and semiotics involve the
attachment of meaning to information,
which strikes me as a separate and
complementary idea. Therefore, I think
it is important to sustain this
distinction explicitly in what we
write. Maybe there is a context in
which ‘information’ and ‘meaning’ are so
intertwined that they cannot be
isolated, but I can’t think of one. I’m
sure there are plenty of contexts in
which the important thing is ‘meaning’,
and where the (more general, IMHO) term
‘information’ is used instead. I think
it is fair to say that you can have
information without meaning, but you
can’t have meaning without information.
Can anybody think of a way in which it
might be misleading if this distinction
was generally accepted?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Guy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Mar 28, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Sungchul
Ji <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu"
target="_blank">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2301119634627255426divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi Fisers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree with Terry
that "information" has three
irreducible aspects ---<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i>amount</i>,<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i>meaning</i>,
and<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i>value</i>.
These somehow may be related
to another triadic relation
called the ITR as depicted
below, although I don't know
the exact rule of mapping
between the two triads.
Perhaps, 'amount' = f,
'meaning' = g, and 'value' =
h ? . </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
f
g</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Object
---------------> Sign
-------------->
Interpretant</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
|
^<br>
|
|<br>
|
|<br>
|
|<br>
|_________________________________| </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
h</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Figure 1.</span></b><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> The<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Irreducible
Triadic Relation</i><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>(ITR)
of seimosis (also called
sign process or
communication) first clearly
articulated by Peirce to the
best of my knowledge.<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span
style="color:red">Warning</span></i><span
style="color:red">: Peirce
often replaces Sign with
Representamen and
represents the whole
triad, i.e., Figure 1
itself (although he did
not use such a figure in
his writings) as the Sign.
Not distinguishing between
these two very different
uses of the same word
"Sign" can lead to
semiotic confusions. </span> The
three processes are defined
as follows: f = sign
production, g = sign
interpretation, h =
information flow (other ways
of labeling the arrows are
not excluded). Each
process or arrow reads
"determines", "leads", "is
presupposed by", etc., and
the three arrows constitute
a<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i>commutative
triangle</i><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>of
category theory, i.e., f x g
= h, meaning f followed by g
ledes to the same result as
h.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I started using the
so-called ITR template,<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Figure
1</b>, about 5 years ago,
and the main reason I am
bringing it up here is to
ask your critical opinion
on my suggestion published
in 2012 (Molecular Theory of
the Living Cell: Concepts,
Molecular Mechanisms, and
Biomedical Applications,
Springer New York, p ~100 ?)
that there are two kinds of
causality -- (i)
the energy-dependent
causality (identified with<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Processes
f<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span></i>and<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span><i>g</i><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>in<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Figure
1</b>) and (ii)
the information (and hence
code)-dependent causality
(identified with<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Process
h</i>). For convenience,
I coined the term '<span
style="color:red">codality</span>'
to refer to the latter to
contrast it with the
traditional term<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><span
style="color:red">causality.
</span> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I wonder if we can
view John's idea of the
relation between
'information' and 'cause' as
being an alternative way of
expressing the same ideas as
the "energy-dependent
causality" or
the "codality" defined in F<b>igure
1.</b><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">All the best.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sung </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center"
align="center">
<hr style="width:1027.5pt"
align="center" size="2"
width="1370">
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2301119634627255426divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fis
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
on behalf of Terrence W.
DEACON <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu"
target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
March 28, 2017 4:23:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>John
Collier<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Fis] Causation is transfer of
information</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Corrected
typos (in case the intrinsic
redundancy didn't compensate
for these minor corruptions
of the text):
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> information-beqaring
medium
= information-bearing
medium</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">appliction
= application</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> conceptiont
= conception</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On
Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:14
PM, Terrence W. DEACON<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu"
target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dear
FIS colleagues,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I
agree with John
Collier that we should
not assume to restrict
the concept of
information to only
one subset of its
potential
applications. But to
work with this breadth
of usage we need to
recognize that
'information' can
refer to intrinsic
statistical properties
of a physical medium,
extrinsic referential
properties of that
medium (i.e. content),
and the significance
or use value of that
content, depending on
the context. A
problem arises when we
demand that only one
of these uses should
be given legitimacy.
As I have repeatedly
suggested on this
listserve, it will be
a source of constant
useless argument to
make the assertion
that someone is wrong
in their understanding
of information if they
use it in one of these
non-formal ways. But
to fail to mark which
conception of
information is being
considered, or worse,
to use equivocal
conceptions of the
term in the same
argument, will
ultimately undermine
our efforts to
understand one another
and develop a complete
general theory of
information.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">This
nominalization of
'inform' has been in
use for hundreds of
years in legal and
literary contexts,
in all of these
variant forms. But
there has been a
slowly increasing
tendency to use it
to refer to the
information-beqaring
medium itself, in
substantial terms.
This reached its
greatest extreme
with the restricted
technical usage
formalized by Claude
Shannon. Remember,
however, that this
was only introduced
a little over a half
century ago. When
one of his mentors
(Hartley) initially
introduced a
logarithmic measure
of signal capacity
he called it
'intelligence' — as
in the gathering of
intelligence by a
spy organization. So
had Shannon chose to
stay with that usage
the confusions could
have been worse
(think about how
confusing it would
have been to talk
about the entropy of
intelligence). Even
so, Shannon himself
was to later caution
against assuming
that his use of the
term 'information'
applied beyond its
technical domain. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">So
despite the
precision and
breadth of
appliction that was
achieved by setting
aside the extrinsic
relational features
that characterize
the more colloquial
uses of the term,
this does not mean
that these other
uses are in some
sense
non-scientific. And
I am not alone in
the belief that
these non-intrinsic
properties can also
(eventually) be
strictly formalized
and thereby
contribute insights
to such technical
fields as molecular
biology and
cognitive
neuroscience. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">As
a result I think
that it is
legitimate to argue
that information (in
the referential
sense) is only in
use among living
forms, that an alert
signal sent by the
computer in an
automobile engine is
information (in both
senses, depending on
whether we include a
human interpreter in
the loop), or that
information (in the
intrinsic sense of a
medium property) is
lost within a black
hole or that it can
be used to provide
a more precise
conceptiont of
physical cause (as
in Collier's sense).
These different uses
aren't unrelated to
each other. They are
just asymmetrically
dependent on one
another, such that
medium-intrinsic
properties can be
investigated without
considering
referential
properties, but not
vice versa. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">It's
time we move beyond
terminological
chauvenism so that
we can further our
dialogue about the
entire domain in
which the concept of
information is
important. To
succeed at this, we
only need to be
clear about which
conception of
information we are
using in any given
context.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">—
Terry</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On
Tue, Mar 28,
2017 at 8:32 PM,
John Collier<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">Collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I
wrote a paper
some time ago
arguing that
causal
processes are
the transfer
of
information.
Therefore I
think that
physical
processes can
and do convey
information.
Cause can be
dispensed
with.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<ul
type="disc">
<li
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
<span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">There
is a copy at<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ncf.ca%2Fcollier%2Fpapers%2Fcausinf.pdf&data=01%7C01%7Choelzer%40unr.edu%7C2cfdcd34699449bb000c08d47629a4c0%7C523b4bfc0ebd4c03b2b96f6a17fd31d8%7C1&sdata=y5LYga7SnUhkgN8ZBtkSTW6%2F0PqRFrwvXXO%2FvMYdl%2Fc%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank">Causation is the Transfer of Information</a><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155apple-converted-space"> </span>In
Howard Sankey
(<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155spelle">ed</span>)<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Causation,
Natural Laws
and
Explanation</i><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155apple-converted-space"> </span>(Dordrecht:
Kluwer, 1999)</span><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Information
is a very
powerful
concept. It is
a shame to
restrict
oneself to
only a part of
its possible
applications.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">John
Collier</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Emeritus
Professor and
Senior
Research
Associate</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Philosophy,
University of
KwaZulu-Natal</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ncf.ca%2Fcollier&data=01%7C01%7Choelzer%40unr.edu%7C2cfdcd34699449bb000c08d47629a4c0%7C523b4bfc0ebd4c03b2b96f6a17fd31d8%7C1&sdata=%2Btv6lCO6ofLs245tO0VmMZlu%2Fw2GKrNEzbE8jZ%2F6DyA%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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Fis mailing list<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426hoenzb"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">--</span></span><span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">Professor
Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of
California, Berkeley</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
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style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">--<span
class="gmail-m-2301119634627255426apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Professor
Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California,
Berkeley</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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_______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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