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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I think we should try to categorize and relate information concepts rather than trying to decide which is the “right one”. I have tried
to do this by looking at various uses of information in science, and argue that the main uses show progressive containment:
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="http://www.triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC/article/view/278/269">Kinds of Information in Scientific Use</a>. 2011. cognition, communication, co-operation. <a href="http://www.triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC/issue/view/22" target="_parent">Vol
9, No 2</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">There are various mathematical formulations of information as well, and I think the same strategy is required here. Sometimes they are equivalent, sometimes close to equivalent, and sometimes quite different in
form and motivation. Work on the foundations of information science needs to make these relations clear. A few years back (more than a decade) a mathematician on a list (newsgroup) argued that there were dozens of different mathematical definitions of information.
I thought this was a bit excessive, and argued with him about convergences, but he was right that they were mathematically different. We need to look at information theory structures and their models to see where they are equivalent and where (and if) they
overlap. Different mathematical forms can have models in common, sometimes all of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I have argued that information originates in symmetry breaking (making a difference, if you like, but I see it as a dynamic process
rather than merely as a representation) </span><span style="color:black"><a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier/papers/infsym.pdf">Information Originates in Symmetry Breaking</a> (<i>Symmetry</i> 1996). I adopt what I call dynamical realism, that anything that
is real is either dynamical or interpretable in dynamical terms. Not everyone will agree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">John Collier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"><a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Guy A Hoelzer [mailto:hoelzer@unr.edu]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 29 March 2017 1:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sungchul Ji <sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu>; Terry Deacon <deacon@berkeley.edu>; John Collier <Collierj@ukzn.ac.za>; Foundations of Information Science Information Science <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Causation is transfer of information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greetings all, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It seems that the indigestion from competing definitions of ‘information’ is hard to resolve, and I agree with Terry and others that a broad definition is preferable. I also think it is not a problem to allow multiple definitions that
can be operationally adopted in appropriate contexts. In some respects, apparently competing definitions are actually reinforcing. For example, I prefer to use ‘information’ to describe any difference (a distinction or contrast), and it is also true that
a subset of all differences are ones that ‘make a difference’ to an observer. When we restrict ‘information’ to differences that make a difference it becomes inherently subjective. That is certainly not a problem if you are interested in subjectivity, but
it would eliminate the rationality of studying objective ‘information’, which I think holds great promise for understanding dynamical systems. I don’t see any conflict between ‘information’ as negentropy and ‘information’ as a basis for decision making. On
the other hand, semantics and semiotics involve the attachment of meaning to information, which strikes me as a separate and complementary idea. Therefore, I think it is important to sustain this distinction explicitly in what we write. Maybe there is a
context in which ‘information’ and ‘meaning’ are so intertwined that they cannot be isolated, but I can’t think of one. I’m sure there are plenty of contexts in which the important thing is ‘meaning’, and where the (more general, IMHO) term ‘information’
is used instead. I think it is fair to say that you can have information without meaning, but you can’t have meaning without information. Can anybody think of a way in which it might be misleading if this distinction was generally accepted?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Guy<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 28, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Sungchul Ji <<a href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi Fisers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree with Terry that "information" has three irreducible aspects ---<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>amount</i>,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>meaning</i>,
and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>value</i>. These somehow may be related to another triadic relation called the ITR as depicted below, although I don't know the exact rule of mapping between the two triads. Perhaps, 'amount' = f, 'meaning'
= g, and 'value' = h ? . <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> f g<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Object ---------------> Sign --------------> Interpretant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> | ^<br>
| |<br>
| |<br>
| |<br>
|_________________________________| <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> h<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Figure 1.</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> The<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Irreducible
Triadic Relation</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>(ITR) of seimosis (also called sign process or communication) first clearly articulated by Peirce to the best of my knowledge.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span style="color:red">Warning</span></i><span style="color:red">: Peirce
often replaces Sign with Representamen and represents the whole triad, i.e., Figure 1 itself (although he did not use such a figure in his writings) as the Sign. Not distinguishing between these two very different uses of the same word "Sign" can lead to semiotic
confusions. </span> The three processes are defined as follows: f = sign production, g = sign interpretation, h = information flow (other ways of labeling the arrows are not excluded). Each process or arrow reads "determines", "leads", "is presupposed by",
etc., and the three arrows constitute a<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>commutative triangle</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>of category theory, i.e., f x g = h, meaning f followed by g ledes to the same result as h.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I started using the so-called ITR template,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Figure 1</b>, about 5 years ago, and the main reason I am bringing it up here is to ask your critical
opinion on my suggestion published in 2012 (Molecular Theory of the Living Cell: Concepts, Molecular Mechanisms, and Biomedical Applications, Springer New York, p ~100 ?) that there are two kinds of causality -- (i) the energy-dependent causality (identified
with<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Processes f<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></i>and<span class="apple-converted-space"><i> </i></span><i>g</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Figure
1</b>) and (ii) the information (and hence code)-dependent causality (identified with<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Process h</i>). For convenience, I coined the term '<span style="color:red">codality</span>' to refer to the latter to contrast
it with the traditional term<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:red">causality. </span> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I wonder if we can view John's idea of the relation between 'information' and 'cause' as being an alternative way of expressing the same ideas as the "energy-dependent causality" or the "codality" defined
in F<b>igure 1.</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">All the best.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sung <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fis
<<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, March 28, 2017 4:23:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>John Collier<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>fis<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] Causation is transfer of information</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Corrected typos (in case the intrinsic redundancy didn't compensate for these minor corruptions of the text):
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> information-beqaring medium = information-bearing medium</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">appliction = application</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> conceptiont = conception</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Terrence W. DEACON<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dear FIS colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I agree with John Collier that we should not assume to restrict the concept of information to only one subset of its potential applications. But to work with this breadth
of usage we need to recognize that 'information' can refer to intrinsic statistical properties of a physical medium, extrinsic referential properties of that medium (i.e. content), and the significance or use value of that content, depending on the context.
A problem arises when we demand that only one of these uses should be given legitimacy. As I have repeatedly suggested on this listserve, it will be a source of constant useless argument to make the assertion that someone is wrong in their understanding of
information if they use it in one of these non-formal ways. But to fail to mark which conception of information is being considered, or worse, to use equivocal conceptions of the term in the same argument, will ultimately undermine our efforts to understand
one another and develop a complete general theory of information. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">This nominalization of 'inform' has been in use for hundreds of years in legal and literary contexts, in all of these variant forms. But there has been a slowly increasing
tendency to use it to refer to the information-beqaring medium itself, in substantial terms. This reached its greatest extreme with the restricted technical usage formalized by Claude Shannon. Remember, however, that this was only introduced a little over
a half century ago. When one of his mentors (Hartley) initially introduced a logarithmic measure of signal capacity he called it 'intelligence' — as in the gathering of intelligence by a spy organization. So had Shannon chose to stay with that usage the confusions
could have been worse (think about how confusing it would have been to talk about the entropy of intelligence). Even so, Shannon himself was to later caution against assuming that his use of the term 'information' applied beyond its technical domain. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">So despite the precision and breadth of appliction that was achieved by setting aside the extrinsic relational features that characterize the more colloquial uses of the
term, this does not mean that these other uses are in some sense non-scientific. And I am not alone in the belief that these non-intrinsic properties can also (eventually) be strictly formalized and thereby contribute insights to such technical fields as molecular
biology and cognitive neuroscience. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">As a result I think that it is legitimate to argue that information (in the referential sense) is only in use among living forms, that an alert signal sent by the computer
in an automobile engine is information (in both senses, depending on whether we include a human interpreter in the loop), or that information (in the intrinsic sense of a medium property) is lost within a black hole or that it can be used to provide a more
precise conceptiont of physical cause (as in Collier's sense). These different uses aren't unrelated to each other. They are just asymmetrically dependent on one another, such that medium-intrinsic properties can be investigated without considering referential
properties, but not vice versa. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">It's time we move beyond terminological chauvenism so that we can further our dialogue about the entire domain in which the concept of information is important. To succeed
at this, we only need to be clear about which conception of information we are using in any given context.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">— Terry<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:32 PM, John Collier<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">Collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I wrote a paper some time ago arguing that causal processes are the transfer of information. Therefore I think that physical processes can and do convey information. Cause
can be dispensed with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">There is a copy at<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ncf.ca%2Fcollier%2Fpapers%2Fcausinf.pdf&data=01%7C01%7Choelzer%40unr.edu%7C2cfdcd34699449bb000c08d47629a4c0%7C523b4bfc0ebd4c03b2b96f6a17fd31d8%7C1&sdata=y5LYga7SnUhkgN8ZBtkSTW6%2F0PqRFrwvXXO%2FvMYdl%2Fc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">Causation
is the Transfer of Information</a><span class="m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155apple-converted-space"> </span>In Howard Sankey (<span class="m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155spelle">ed</span>)<span class="m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Causation,
Natural Laws and Explanation</i><span class="m-1244511522600008896m-3288161823393148155apple-converted-space"> </span>(Dordrecht: Kluwer, 1999)<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Information is a very powerful concept. It is a shame to restrict oneself to only a part of its possible applications.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">John Collier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="hoenzb"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">--</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888"> </span></span><span class="hoenzb"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">--<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
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