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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">John Collier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"><a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> John Collier
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 28 March 2017 9:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'darvasg' <darvasg@iif.hu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">I wrote this a few days ago, but it is still worth posting. I might add that biological entities making choices grades off into cases where there is only one
choice. If determinism is true, then there are no real choices. If it is false, that doesn’t help either.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">There are cases that I have given references to on this list in which information, but no energy leads to step climbing, indicate transformation of information
into energy. Though the example was constructed by experimenters, I see nothing that could not result from a fortuitous set of physical circumstances. The movement could be used to trigger an informational even (turn a switch, for example, or select a quantum
state), though turning information into information.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">I suspect there are simpler examples, and leave the list to come up with the. All I wanted to do was to demonstrate principle. We tend to give almost magical
properties to life. Thai violates my understanding of General Systems Theory, which applies the same principles to all systems from top to bottom, rather than trying to find everything in the lowest levels, as in physicalism.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">John Collier</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier" target="_BLANK??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????㨐濯Å"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0563C1">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>darvasg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, 25 March 2017 11:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>; Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">markov@foibg.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear Krassimir,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">They can!!!!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">For details, see my contrinution to the 2015 Vienna IS4IS meeting and following publications of the proceedings!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Best, Gyuri</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">24.03.2017 16:25 időpontban Krassimir Markov ezt írta:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Let me remember that:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could "exchange information" leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological faults.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Sorry for this n-th my remark ...
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Friendly greetings</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Krassimir</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" title="tozziarturo@libero.it"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">tozziarturo@libero.it</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Sent:</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52
PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">To:</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Subject:</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> [Fis] I: Re: Is information
truly important?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Lars-Göran,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS mail for the next days.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">First of all, in special relativity, an observer is NOT by definition a material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other objects.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of an observer is not specifically hypothesizing an
individual person who is experiencing events, but rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store
incoming energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic zone close to the sun. The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact with) a huge sun surface (because
of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same sun, but they "detect" different
surfaces, and therefore they may exchange with the sun a different information content. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information with the sun than we humans
can.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time of the "observer". </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<strong><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Arturo Tozzi</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Courier New";color:black">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_BLANK??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????㨐濯Å"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:#05447E">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</span></a><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">----Messaggio originale----<br>
Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" <</span><a href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">><br>
Data: 24/03/2017 14.50<br>
A: "</span><a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">tozziarturo@libero.it</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">"<</span><a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">tozziarturo@libero.it</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">><br>
Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev
</span><a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">tozziarturo@libero.it</span></a><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Fisers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">a big doubt...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's equations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy to accelerate even a slighest object
to the velocity of light, no observer can travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Lars-Göran Johansson</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<strong><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Arturo Tozzi</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Courier New";color:black">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<a href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_BLANK??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????㨐濯Å"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:#05447E">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</span></a><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Lars-Göran Johansson</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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