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<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Dear FIS-ers,</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">1) A can is empty or filled.
Its "emptiness" or "filledness" is an information. This is an
objective property. It is independent of whether a conscious
being perceives it or not. I generally argue for this
non-subjectivity of information.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">2) There is an information
change when a filled can loses its content, independent of
whether a conscious being pours the content, or that happens
as a result of a damage by an earthquake.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">3) Information is transmitted
between two telephone exchange centers via wires (or wireless)
by the way of electromagnetic impulses. Generally it is
initiated by conscious human beings, and received by another
(if one answers the call, or detects at her/his computer). In
certain cases, the impulses can be modified by outside
magnetic waves originating from the space, e.g., from the Sun.
It is also a part of the transmitted information, and no
"conscious information-processor" takes active part in it.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">This *information*(by its
nickname e-mail), transmitted to you, has been in your
computer even before you read (and perceived) it.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Best, Gyuri</font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2017.03.26. 11:39, Krassimir Markov
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:895B29FAFB084FD08B955F266E7F4AE7@VaioMarkov"
type="cite">
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<div><font size="4">Dear <font
style="size: 2">Brian,
</font>Arturo, Karl,
Alex, Lars-Goran,
Gyuri, and FIS
colleagues,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Thank
you for your remarks!</font></div>
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<div style="FONT: 10pt
tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">What is
important is that
every theory has
its own
understanding of
the concepts it
uses.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">For
“foreigners”,
theirs meaning may
be strange or
unknown.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">Some
times, concepts of
one theory
contradict to
corresponded
concepts from
other theory.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">For
years, I have met
many different
definitions of
concept
“information” and
many more kinds of
its use.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">From
materialistic up
to weird point of
view...</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">To clear
my own
understanding, I
shall give you a
simple example:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">CAN THE
CAN DRINK BEER ?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">CAN THE
CAN EXCHANGE BEER
WITH THE GLASS ?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">The can
is used by humans
for some goals,
for instance to
store some beer
for a given
period.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">But the
can itself “could
not understand”
its own functions
and what the can
can do with beer
it contains.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">All its
functionality is a
human’s
consciousness
model.</font></div>
<div><font
style="size: 4"
face="Calibri"
size="4">Can
cannot exchange
beer with the
glass if there are
no human activity
or activity of
additional devices
invented by humans
to support this.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">Further:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">CAN THE
ARTIFICIAL LEG
WALK ?</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">You know
the answer ...
Human with an
artificial leg can
walk ...</font></div>
<div><font
style="size: 4"
face="Calibri"
size="4">All
functionality of
artificial leg is
a result from
human’s
consciousness
modeling and
invention.</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">In
addition:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">IS THE
“PHYSICAL
INFORMATION”
INFORMATION ?</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">If it is,
the first question
is how to measure
the quantity and
quality of such
“information” and
who can do this?
</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">I prefer
the answer “NO” –
“physical
information” is a
concept which
means something
else but not
“information” as
it is in my
understanding.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">From my
point of view,
“physical
information” is a
kind of reflection
(see “Theory of
reflections” of
T.Pavlov). </font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">Every
reflection may be
assumed as
information iff
(if and only if)
there exist a
subjective
information
expectation to be
resolved by given
reflection.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">For
physical
information this
low is not
satisfied. Because
of this, I prefer
to call this
phenomenon simply
“a reflection”. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">And so on
...</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4"><font
style="face:
calibri"><font
style="size:
4">Finally:</font></font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4"><font
style="face:
calibri"><font
style="size:
4">Human been
invented too
much kinds of
<span
tabindex="-1"
id="result_box" class="short_text" lang="en"><span>prostheses including
ones for our
intellectual
functionalities,
i.e. many
different
kinds of
electronic
devices which,
in particular,
can generate
some
electrical<font
style="size:
+0">,</font>
light, etc.
impulses,
which we
assume as
“information”;
usually <font
style="size:
+0">a </font></span></span></font></font><font
style="face:
calibri"><font
style="size:
4"><span
tabindex="-1"
class="short_text" lang="en"><span>combination of impulses we assume as
s structure to
be recognized
by us as
“information”.
</span></span></font></font></font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4"><font
style="face:
calibri"><font
style="size:
4"><span
tabindex="-1"
class="short_text" lang="en"><span></span></span></font></font></font> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4"><font
style="face:
calibri"><font
style="size:
4"><span
tabindex="-1"
class="short_text" lang="en"><span>A special kind of <span
tabindex="-1"
id="result_box" class="short_text" lang="en"><span>prostheses are <font
style="size:
4"
face="Calibri"><font
style="face:
calibri"><font
style="size:
4"><span
tabindex="-1"
class="short_text" lang="en"><span>Robots. They have</span></span></font></font></font>
some
autonomous
functionalities
but are still
very far from
living
consciousness.
The level of
complexity of
robot’s
consciousness
is far of
human’s one.
Someone may
say that
robots
understand and
exchange
“information”,
but still they
only react on
incoming
signals
following the
instructions
given by
humans. Theirs
functioning is
similar to
human ones but
only similar.
They may
recognize some
structures of
signals and
exchange such
ones with
other robots
or living
creatures.
Maybe someone
wants to call
this
“information
exchange”,
but, after
Shannon, I
call this
“sending
and/or
receiving
signals”. And
automatic
reaction to
signals. </span></span></span></span></font></font></font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4"><font
style="face:
calibri"><font
style="size:
4"><span
tabindex="-1"
class="short_text" lang="en"><span><span tabindex="-1"
class="short_text"
lang="en"><span></span></span></span></span></font></font></font> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">One may
say, the Robot
(Computer) memory
contains
information but
really it</font> <font
face="Calibri"
size="4">does not
contain anything –
it has its own
structure which
can be changed
temporally of
permanently by
external
electrical
impulses.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">Is the
human memory the
same – a structure
which can be
changed temporally
of permanently by
external or
internal signals?
I think – yes, It
is!</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">What is
the difference?
Why we may say
that the living
creatures process
information but
not living
couldn’t? </font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">The
answer is: because
the living
creatures may
create and resolve
the “information
expectation” with
very high level of
complexity. </font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">Maybe in
the future robots
will can do it ...</font></div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">Such
robot I call
“INFOS”. It will
be artificial
living creature.
Possibly with some
biological
elements. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
face="Calibri"
size="4">It will
be very
interesting and
amazing to see how
the can can drink
beer :-) And very
dangerous – where
the beer will be
kept if the can
can drink it?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#f5f5f5"
face="Calibri"
size="4">I hope,
now it is clear
why I assert that
(now!) non-living
objects COULD NOT
“exchange
information”.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#f5f5f5"
face="Calibri"
size="4">Friendly
regards</font></div>
<div><font
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#f5f5f5"
face="Calibri"
size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <font
face="Calibri"
size="4"> </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="BACKGROUND:
#f5f5f5">
<div
style="font-color:
black"><b>From:</b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="karl.javorszky@gmail.com" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com">Karl
Javorszky</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b>
Friday, March 24,
2017 8:24 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="alexhankey@gmail.com"
href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com">Alex
Hankey</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="markov@foibg.com"
href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">Krassimir
Markov</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="tozziarturo@libero.it"
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">Arturo
Tozzi</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="fis@listas.unizar.es"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">FIS
Webinar</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Fis]
non-living objects
COULD NOT
“exchange
information”</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>1) Let me
second to the
point Alex
raises:<br>
</div>
machines,
computers, do
exchange
information.
It would be
against
cultural
conventions to
say that the
notification
that the
refrigerator
sends to your
phone's app
"to-do-list"
of the content
"milk only 0.5
liter
available" is
not an
information.<br>
<br>
</div>
The signals my
car's pressure
sensor sends
to my
dashboard,
saying "tire
pressure front
right wheel is
critically
low" is a
clear case of
information,
whether I read
it or not.<br>
<br>
</div>
2) Let me add to
the point Alex
states, namely
that the "form
of information
that I presented
to FiS a year
ago offers the
only
scientifically
based,mathematical
physics form of
'information'
that I have
personally seen
in the
scientific
literature",
(Alex, will you
please restate
in the present
context, for the
present
discussion, your
formulation) the
following:<br>
<br>
</div>
I have given in my
work "Natural
orders - de
ordinibus
naturalibus" (ISBN
<span
class="gmail-st">9783990571378</span>)
the following
definition of the
term
"information":<br>
<span
style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt;
FONT-FAMILY:
"liberation
serif",serif">8.3.3.3 <span> </span><span
style="BACKGROUND:
yellow">Information
is a
description of
what is not
the case</span>.
[Let <i>x = a</i></span><i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif">k</span></i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif">.
This is a
statement, no
information
contained. Let <i>x
= a</i></span><i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif">k</span></i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif"><span> </span>and
<i>k </i></span><i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" lang="FR-CA"><span><symbol
for
is_included_in></span></span><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif">
{1,2,...,k,...,n}</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
"liberation
serif",serif">. This statement contains the information <i>k </i></span><i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" lang="FR-CA"><span><symbol
for
is_not_included_in></span></span></i><i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" lang="FR-CA"><span></span></span><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif">{1,2,...,k-1,k+1,...,n}</span></i><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif">.]<br>
</span></div>
<span
style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
"liberation
serif",serif">(Sorry
for the included
& not-included
symbols not making
it thru the
simplified text
editor in use
here.)<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<span
style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt; FONT-FAMILY:
"liberation
serif",serif">Karl<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div> </div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">2017-03-24
18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex
Hankey <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc
1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">BUT,
in common
parlance,
computers and
mobile phones
'exchange
information' (in
the abstract,
digital sense)
all the time.
Including this
email.
<div> </div>
<div>If you wish
to cleanly
restrict
yourself to
semantic
content, the
the form of
information
that I
presented to
FiS a year ago
offers the
only
scientifically
based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally
seen in the
scientific
literature. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best
wishes, </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Alex Hankey
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div
class="h5">
<div> </div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
24 March 2017
at 15:25,
Krassimir
Markov <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc
1px solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="FONT-SIZE:
14pt;
FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri';
COLOR:
#000000">
<div><font
size="4">Dear
Arturo and FIS
Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font
size="4">Let
me remember
that:</font></div>
<div><font
size="4">The
basic
misunderstanding
that
non-living
objects could
“exchange
information”
leads to many
principal
theoretical as
well as
psychological
faults. </font></div>
<div><font
size="4">For
instance,
photon could
exchange only
energy and/or
reflections !</font></div>
<div><font
size="4"><em>Sorry
for this n-th
my remark ...
</em></font></div>
<div><font
size="4">Friendly
greetings</font></div>
<div><font
size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="FONT-SIZE:
small;
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none;
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normal; COLOR:
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DISPLAY:
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<div
style="FONT:
10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div
style="BACKGROUND:
#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"
target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b>
Friday, March
24, 2017 4:52
PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b>
[Fis] I: Re:
Is information
truly
important?</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
style="FONT-SIZE:
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<blockquote><br>
<br>
<div>Dear <span
style="COLOR:
rgb(0,0,0)">Lars-Göran,
</span></div>
<div><font
color="#000000">I
prefer to use
asap my second
FIS bullet,
therefore it
will be my
last FIS mail
for the next
days. </font></div>
<div><font
color="#000000"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
color="#000000">First
of all, in
special
relativity, a</font>n
observer is
NOT by
definition a
material
object that
can receive
and store
incoming
energy from
other
objects. <font
color="#000000"><br>
</font>
<div>In
special
relativity, an
observer is a
frame of
reference from
which a set of
objects or
events are
being
measured.
Speaking of an
observer is
not
specifically
hypothesizing
an individual
person who is
experiencing
events, but
rather it is a
particular
mathematical
context which
objects and
events are to
be evaluated
from. The
effects of
special
relativity
occur whether
or not there
is a "material
object that
can recieve
and store
incoming
energy from
other objects"
within the
inertial
reference
frame to
witness them.</div>
<div> </div>
Furthermore,
take a photon
(traveling at
speed light)
that crosses a
cosmic zone
close to the
sun. The
photon
"detects" (and
therefore can
interact with)
a huge sun
surface
(because of
its high
speed), while
we humans on
the Earth
"detect" (and
can interact
with) a much
smaller sun
surface. </div>
<div>Therefore,
the photon may
exchange more
information
with the sun
than the
humans on the
Earth: both
the photon and
the humans
interact with
the same sun,
but they
"detect"
different
surfaces, and
therefore they
may exchange
with the sun a
different
information
content. </div>
<div>If we
also take into
account that
the photon
detects an
almost
infinite,
fixed time,
this means
once again
that it can
exchange much
more
information
with the sun
than we humans
can.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In sum,
once again,
information
does not seem
to be a
physical
quantity,
rather just a
very
subjective
measure,
depending on
the speed and
of the time of
the
"observer".
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> <br>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font face="courier new,
monospace"><b>Arturo
Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA
Professor
Physics,
University
North Texas</font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font face="courier new,
monospace">Pediatrician
ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font face="courier new,
monospace">Comput
Intell Lab,
University
Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font
face="courier
new,
monospace"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126);
LINE-HEIGHT:
normal"
href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/"
target="_blank">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span
style="FONT-SIZE:
14px;
LINE-HEIGHT:
normal"><wbr> </span></font><br>
</p>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>----Messaggio
originale----<br>
Da:
"Lars-Göran
Johansson"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi<wbr>.uu.se</a>><br>
Data:
24/03/2017
14.50<br>
A: "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>"<<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"
target="_blank">tozzia<wbr>rturo@libero.it</a>><br>
Ogg: Re: [Fis]
Is information
truly
important?<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>24 mars
2017 kl. 13:15
skrev <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Dear
Fisers, </div>
<div>a big
doubt...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We know
that the
information of
a 3D black
hole is
proportional
to its 2D
horizon,
according to
the
Bekenstein-Hawking
equations.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>However,
an hypotetical
observer
traveling at
light speed
(who watches a
black hole at
rest) detects
a very large
black hole
horizon, due
to Einstein's
equations.</div>
<div>Therefore,
he detects
more
information
from the black
hole than an
observer at
rest, who sees
a smaller
horizon…</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
An observer is
by definition
a material
object that
can recieve
and store
incoming
energy from
other objects.
Since it
requires
infinite
energy to
accelerate
even a
slighest
object to the
velocity of
light, no
observer can
travel at the
speed of
light. That
means that
your thought
experiment is
based in
inconsistent
assumptions
and no vaild
conclusions
from them can
be drawn. </div>
<div>Lars-Göran
Johansson</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>In sum,
information
does not seem
to be a
physical
quantity,
rather just a
very
subjective
measure...<br>
<br>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font face="courier new,
monospace"><b>Arturo
Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA
Professor
Physics,
University
North Texas</font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font face="courier new,
monospace">Pediatrician
ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font face="courier new,
monospace">Comput
Intell Lab,
University
Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p
class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font
face="courier
new,
monospace"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126);
LINE-HEIGHT:
normal"
href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/"
target="_blank">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span
style="FONT-SIZE:
14px;
LINE-HEIGHT:
normal"><wbr> </span></font><br>
</p>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Fis mailing
list<br>
<a
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</blockquote>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div
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<div>Lars-Göran
Johansson</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.<wbr>uu.se</a></div>
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<span
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<div><span
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