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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Jesse,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Welcome to the group and thank you for your
thoughtful presentation of a view of information. I would call this this
standard physicalist view and say that while it applies in some simple cases, it
does not capture the complex process that is represented by the word
'information'. Perhaps the following few points will suggest some possible
additions or changes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. The simplistic example of the beer container and
the contained beer is inapplicable and misleading. There is obviously no
interaction to all intents and purposes between the beer and the can. This is
not the case with regard to the energetic and meaningful (biotic, Logan)
aspects of information.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. The type-token distinction was 'invented' to
cover simple examples of bivalent linguistic structure. Once you apply tokens to
information, you have begged the question about its being
abstract.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>3. Biologists have apparently been
unable to explain ' exactly' where information is in DNA, perhaps, in my
view, because the question is badly posed: you are looking for a 'physical
entity'. Suppose that what should be involved is not a fixed entity but a
process that does not have an exact location and properties and
is physical but in two senses, partly present and partly
potential?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>4. With this in mind, the debate about whether what
is exchanged between non-living objects is information or not becomes
otiose. As you imply at the end of your note, one should take a pragmatic
position, provided in my opinion that any definition does not exclude properties
of human information which while <EM>primarily</EM> intuitive, are
not <EM>ipso facto</EM> totally separated from knowledge. Intuiting is also
a physical process.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>5. A third group of theories of information, among
which I include the semiotic, may be characterized as insufficiently
physicalist. I mean by this dependent on world-views which fail to
integrate the dynamic physical properties of information and postulate other
types of 'convenient fictions' as fundamental. Nevertheless, like all the
approaches indicated, it has something to offer, without being the 'whole
story'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As you say, the key is to have an open
mind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe Brenner</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A Student</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=jesse.dinneen@mail.mcgill.ca
href="mailto:jesse.dinneen@mail.mcgill.ca">Jesse David Dinneen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 26, 2017 10:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Can the can drink beer ? - No way!</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Dear FIS colleagues,
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<DIV>Though this is my first post I will spare my introduction to keep the
message short. For now I'd simply like to thank everyone for the stimulating
conversations and share a few thoughts regarding the current discussion, in
which I sympathize with Krassimir, Bob, and others unconvinced that information
transfer happens between non-living objects. For me this is caused by the
following points:</DIV>
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<DIV>(a) One can identify identical information in non-identical physical
phenomena, and non-identical information in identical physical phenomena, which
suggests that information is <I>not</I> identical to (and therefore shouldn't be
confused with) the physical objects that carry or afford it. I give examples and
discuss this and other problematic beliefs about information in an article
published in <I>Library Trends 63</I>(3), though it is written primarily for
information professionals and thus may bore some FIS readers.</DIV>
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<DIV>(b) If information were physical, it couldn't be in two places at once,
suggesting that information transfer would cause the source to lose the sent
information. If we apply the type/token distinction we can instead say that in a
case of successful information transfer the receiver obtains a token of the
correct information <I>type</I> (i.e,. the same type as the source's token).
Since types are <I>abstract</I>, so is information. Timpson argued this
about Shannon information in his influential PhD dissertation about
the nature of quantum information, and I adapted it to non-Shannon information
in a short paper that will appear in this year's <I>Canadian Association
for Information Science </I>conference proceedings.</DIV>
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<DIV>(c) In my experience, examples that seem like demonstrations of physical or
natural information can be restated or explained with sufficient physical causes
and effects and<I> no mention</I> of information. This and the above problems
suggest information is not truly present in such cases (if information isn't
physical, non-living objects can't exchange it) but is instead a convenient
fiction superimposed by those describing the transfer. Indeed, when I have
tasked biologists to explain where <I>exactly</I> the
information <I>is </I>in DNA, it always remained couched in figurative
speech and eluded confident identification with some physical entity.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
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<DIV>So, while it may be counter-intuitive (as Alex and Karl noted) to state
that information transfer does <I>not</I> happen between non-living
objects, I find it <I>unsound</I> to state that it does, and appeasing
intuition is a desideratum, not a criterion, of the work of scientists and
philosophers: I believe we owe more fidelity to knowledge than to common
parlance or intuition, which are mercurial. I don't believe this means such
views of information shouldn't be adopted for <I>use</I> -- the
productivity of information theory or DNA 'information' is undeniable -- just
that we should be careful <I>how</I> and <I>how far</I> we let our convenient
fictions extend into theorising about and characterisation of
<I>information</I>. But I continue to follow this topic with an open mind and
look forward to reading others' views.</DIV>
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<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>Jesse David Dinneen</DIV>
<DIV>McGill University</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Moisés André Nisenbaum
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br"
target=_blank>moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear Bob.
<DIV>I agree 100%. We must classify information in abiotic and biotic, but, in
my opinion, both are parts of "information".</DIV>
<DIV>Some scientists, including Tom Stonier, tried to define information
considering the syntactic and semantic aspects of information.</DIV>
<DIV>Can we draw a parallel between these concepts?</DIV>
<DIV>Abiotic <--> syntactic <--> Shannon <--> machines</DIV>
<DIV>Biotic <--> semantic <--> human</DIV>
<DIV>Shall we abandon the insights from Shannon theory to construct a theory
of information (unified and non reductionist)?<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Attached a draw to illustrate the Von Newmann - Shannon talking
:-)<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Um abraço</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Moisés</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote><SPAN>2017-03-26 11:30 GMT-03:00 Bob Logan <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca"
target=_blank>logan@physics.utoronto.ca</A>></SPAN>:<BR></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN>Hello Krassimir - I agree with the
sentiments you expressed - they seem to parallel my thoughts.
<DIV><BR></DIV></SPAN>
<DIV>I am often puzzled by the use of the term ‘information’ in the
way it is often used by physicists re the info of material objects . The way
the term information is used in physics such as Wheelers its from bits does
not conform to my understanding of information as a noun describing the
process of informing. How can abiotic matter be informed as it cannot make
any choices and hence cannot be informed. Living organisms make
choices and use information to make those choices for all living creatures
from bacteria to humans including physicists :-). The only information
involved in the uses by physicists describing our universe of the word
information is that associated with physicists becoming informed of what is
happening in the universe they observe. I am happy that they want to discuss
this info but I believe there is a need to distinguish between info (biotic)
and info (abiotic) as used in physics. The use of a single word information
for both categories is confusing, at least it is for me. This ambiguity
reminds me of Shannon's use of the term entropy to define his notion of
information having taken the advice of Von Neumann. <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman'">A story is told that
Shannon did not know what to call his measure and von Neumann advised him to
call it entropy because nobody knows what it means and that it would
therefore give Shannon an advantage in any debate (Campbell, Jeremy 1982, p.
32 </SPAN> <I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman'">Grammatical Man:
Information, Entropy, Language, and Life. </SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman'">New York: Simon and
Schuster.</SPAN> <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman'">). </SPAN> Shannon
defined information in such a way that he admitted was not necessarily about
meaning. Information without meaning has no meaning for me. Kind
regards to all - Bob Logan</DIV>
<DIV>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">______________________</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN><SPAN
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></DIV>Robert K. Logan</SPAN><SPAN
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Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </SPAN>
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University of St. Michael's College</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
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Scientist - sLab at OCAD</SPAN><SPAN
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href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan"
target=_blank>http://utoronto.academia.edu/R<WBR>obertKLogan</A></SPAN>
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target=_blank>www.researchgate.net/profile/R<WBR>obert_Logan5/publications</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><A
href="https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/"
target=_blank>https://www.physics.utoronto.c<WBR>a/people/homepages/logan/</A></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV>On Mar 26, 2017, at 5:39 AM, Krassimir Markov <<A
href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target=_blank>markov@foibg.com</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dear <FONT size=+0>Brian, </FONT>Arturo, Karl, Alex,
Lars-Goran, Gyuri, and FIS colleagues,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thank you for your remarks!</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>What is important is that every theory has
its own understanding of the concepts it uses.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>For “foreigners”, theirs meaning may be
strange or unknown.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>Some times, concepts of one theory contradict
to corresponded concepts from other theory.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>For years, I have met many different
definitions of concept “information” and many more kinds of its
use.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>From materialistic up to weird point of
view...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>To clear my own understanding, I shall give
you a simple example:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>CAN THE CAN DRINK BEER ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>CAN THE CAN EXCHANGE BEER WITH THE GLASS
?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>The can is used by humans for some goals, for
instance to store some beer for a given period.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>But the can itself “could not understand” its
own functions and what the can can do with beer it contains.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>All its functionality is a human’s
consciousness model.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>Can cannot exchange beer with the glass if
there are no human activity or activity of additional devices invented by
humans to support this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>Further:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>CAN THE ARTIFICIAL LEG WALK
?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>You know the answer ... Human with an
artificial leg can walk ...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>All functionality of artificial leg is a
result from human’s consciousness modeling and
invention.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>In addition:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>IS THE “PHYSICAL INFORMATION” INFORMATION
?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>If it is, the first question is how to
measure the quantity and quality of such “information” and who can do
this? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>I prefer the answer “NO” – “physical
information” is a concept which means something else but not “information”
as it is in my understanding.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>From my point of view, “physical information”
is a kind of reflection (see “Theory of reflections” of T.Pavlov).
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>Every reflection may be assumed as
information iff (if and only if) there exist a subjective information
expectation to be resolved by given reflection.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>For physical information this low is not
satisfied. Because of this, I prefer to call this phenomenon simply “a
reflection”. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>And so on ...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4><FONT size=+0><FONT
size=+0>Finally:</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4><FONT size=+0><FONT
size=+0></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0>Human been
invented too much kinds of <SPAN
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lang=en
id=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516result_box><SPAN>prostheses
including ones for our intellectual functionalities, i.e. many different
kinds of electronic devices which, in particular, can generate some
electrical<FONT size=+0>,</FONT> light, etc. impulses, which we assume as
“information”; usually <FONT size=+0>a
</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><SPAN
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lang=en><SPAN>combination of impulses we assume as s structure to be
recognized by us as “information”.
</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><SPAN
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lang=en><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><SPAN
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lang=en><SPAN>A special kind of <SPAN
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lang=en
id=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516result_box><SPAN>prostheses
are <FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><SPAN
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lang=en><SPAN>Robots. They have</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> some
autonomous functionalities but are still very far from living consciousness.
The level of complexity of robot’s consciousness is far of human’s one.
Someone may say that robots understand and exchange “information”, but still
they only react on incoming signals following the instructions given by
humans. Theirs functioning is similar to human ones but only similar. They
may recognize some structures of signals and exchange such ones with other
robots or living creatures. Maybe someone wants to call this “information
exchange”, but, after Shannon, I call this “sending and/or receiving
signals”. And automatic reaction to signals.
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><SPAN
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lang=en><SPAN><SPAN
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lang=en><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>One may say, the Robot (Computer)
memory contains information but really it</FONT> <FONT
face=Calibri size=4>does not contain anything – it has its own structure
which can be changed temporally of permanently by external electrical
impulses.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>Is the human memory the same – a structure
which can be changed temporally of permanently by external or internal
signals? I think – yes, It is!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>What is the difference? Why we may say that
the living creatures process information but not living couldn’t?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>The answer is: because the living creatures
may create and resolve the “information expectation” with very high level of
complexity. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>Maybe in the future robots will can do it
...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>Such robot I call “INFOS”. It will be
artificial living creature. Possibly with some biological
elements. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4>It will be very interesting and amazing to
see how the can can drink beer :-) And very dangerous – where the beer will
be kept if the can can drink it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)" face=Calibri size=4>I
hope, now it is clear why I assert that (now!) non-living objects COULD NOT
“exchange information”.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)" face=Calibri
size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)" face=Calibri
size=4>Friendly regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)" face=Calibri
size=4>Krassimir</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)" face=Calibri
size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)" face=Calibri
size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)" face=Calibri
size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> <FONT face=Calibri size=4>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245); background-size: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=karl.javorszky@gmail.com
href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target=_blank>Karl Javorszky</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 24, 2017 8:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=alexhankey@gmail.com
href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target=_blank>Alex Hankey</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=markov@foibg.com href="mailto:markov@foibg.com"
target=_blank>Krassimir Markov</A> ; <A title=tozziarturo@libero.it
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target=_blank>Arturo Tozzi</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>FIS Webinar</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange
information”</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:<BR></DIV>machines,
computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural conventions
to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to your phone's app
"to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter available" is not an
information.<BR><BR></DIV>The signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my
dashboard, saying "tire pressure front right wheel is critically low" is a
clear case of information, whether I read it or not.<BR><BR></DIV>2) Let me
add to the point Alex states, namely that the "form of information that I
presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically
based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen
in the scientific literature", (Alex, will you please restate in the present
context, for the present discussion, your formulation) the
following:<BR><BR></DIV>I have given in my work "Natural orders - de
ordinibus naturalibus" (ISBN <SPAN
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516gmail-st>9783990571378</SPAN>)
the following definition of the term "information":<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">8.3.3.3
<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow; background-size: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial">Information
is a description of what is not the case</SPAN>. [Let <I>x =
a</I></SPAN><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">k</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">. This is a
statement, no information contained. Let <I>x = a</I></SPAN><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">k</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif"><SPAN> </SPAN>and
<I>k </I></SPAN><I><SPAN lang=FR-CA
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol"><SPAN><symbol for
is_included_in></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">
{1,2,...,k,...,n}</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">. This
statement contains the information <I>k </I></SPAN><I><SPAN lang=FR-CA
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol"><SPAN><symbol for
is_not_included_in></SPAN></SPAN></I><I><SPAN lang=FR-CA
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol"><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">{1,2,...,k-<WBR>1,k+1,...,n}</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">.]<BR></SPAN></DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">(Sorry for
the included & not-included symbols not making it thru the
simplified text editor in use here.)<BR><BR></SPAN></DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'liberation serif',serif">Karl<BR><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2017-03-24 18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex Hankey <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com"
target=_blank>alexhankey@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"
type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones
'exchange information' (in the abstract, digital sense) all the time.
Including this email.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the
form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only
scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I
have personally seen in the scientific literature. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best wishes, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Alex Hankey </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516h5>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:markov@foibg.com"
target=_blank>markov@foibg.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"
type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri">
<DIV><FONT size=4>Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Let me remember that:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects
could “exchange information” leads to many principal theoretical
as well as psychological faults. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or
reflections !</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><EM>Sorry for this n-th my remark ...
</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Friendly greetings</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Krassimir</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch: normal">
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245); background-size: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=tozziarturo@libero.it
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"
target=_blank>tozziarturo@libero.it</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis@listas.unizar.es</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly
important?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR><BR>
<DIV>Dear <SPAN>Lars-Göran, </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0>I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet,
therefore it will be my last FIS mail for the next days. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0>First of all, in special relativity, a</FONT>n
observer is NOT by definition a material object that can receive and
store incoming energy from other objects. <FONT
size=+0><BR></FONT>
<DIV>In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from
which a set of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of
an observer is not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who
is experiencing events, but rather it is a particular mathematical
context which objects and events are to be evaluated from. The effects
of special relativity occur whether or not there is a "material object
that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects" within
the inertial reference frame to witness them.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light)
that crosses a cosmic zone close to the sun. The photon
"detects" (and therefore can interact with) a huge sun surface
(because of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth "detect"
(and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface. </DIV>
<DIV>Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun
than the humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact
with the same sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore
they may exchange with the sun a different information content.
</DIV>
<DIV>If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost
infinite, fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much
more information with the sun than we humans can.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical
quantity, rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the
speed and of the time of the "observer". </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> <BR>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><FONT
face="courier new, monospace"><B>Arturo Tozzi</B></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><FONT face="courier new, monospace">AA
Professor Physics, University North Texas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><FONT
face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><FONT
face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University
Manitoba</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><FONT
face="courier new, monospace"><A
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126); LINE-HEIGHT: normal"
href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/"
target=_blank>http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><WBR> </SPAN></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">----Messaggio originale----<BR>Da:
"Lars-Göran Johansson" <<A
href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se"
target=_blank>Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi<WBR>.uu.se</A>><BR>Data:
24/03/2017 14.50<BR>A: "<A href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"
target=_blank>tozziarturo@libero.it</A>"<<A
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"
target=_blank>tozzia<WBR>rturo@libero.it</A>><BR>Ogg: Re: [Fis]
Is information truly important?<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev <A
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"
target=_blank>tozziarturo@libero.it</A>:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Dear Fisers, </DIV>
<DIV>a big doubt...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We know that the information of a 3D black hole is
proportional to its 2D horizon, according to the
Bekenstein-Hawking equations.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed
(who watches a black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole
horizon, due to Einstein's equations.</DIV>
<DIV>Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole
than an observer at rest, who sees a smaller
horizon…</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>An observer is by definition a
material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from
other objects. Since it requires infinite energy to accelerate
even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can
travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought
experiment is based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild
conclusions from them can be drawn. </DIV>
<DIV>Lars-Göran Johansson</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity,
rather just a very subjective measure...<BR><BR>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><FONT
face="courier new, monospace"><B>Arturo
Tozzi</B></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%"><FONT face="courier new, monospace">AA
Professor Physics, University North Texas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><FONT
face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><FONT
face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University
Manitoba</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst><FONT
face="courier new, monospace"><A
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126); LINE-HEIGHT: normal"
href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/"
target=_blank>http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><WBR> </SPAN></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV><BR>______________________________<WBR>_________________<BR>Fis
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>Fis@listas.unizar.es</A><BR><A
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
target=_blank>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bi<WBR>n/mailman/listinfo/fis</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<DIV>Lars-Göran Johansson</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.uu.se"
target=_blank>lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.<WBR>uu.se</A></DIV>
<DIV>0701-679178</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline><BR
class=m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline></DIV><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<HR>
______________________________<WBR>_________________<BR>Fis mailing
list<BR><A href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>Fis@listas.unizar.es</A><BR><A
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mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
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clear=all>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV><SPAN
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color=#888888>-- <BR>
<DIV
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<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">Alex
Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">
(M.I.T.)<BR>Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical
Science,<BR>SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle<BR>Bangalore
560019, Karnataka, India <BR>Mobile (Intn'l): <A
href="tel:+44%207710%20534195" target=_blank value="+447710534195">+44
7710 534195</A> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">Mobile
(India) <A href="tel:+91%2090080%2008789" target=_blank
value="+919008008789">+91 900 800 8789</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">______________________________<WBR>______________________________</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif"><A
style="COLOR: rgb(17,85,204)"
href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00796107/119/3"
target=_blank>2015 JPBMB Special Issue on Integral Biomathics: Life
Sciences, Mathematics and Phenomenological
Philosophy</A></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>______________________________<WBR>_________________<BR>Fis
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
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<DIV dir=ltr>Moisés André Nisenbaum<BR>Doutor em Ciência da Informação
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