<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hello Krassimir - I agree with the sentiments you expressed - they seem to parallel my thoughts.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am often puzzled by the use of the term ‘information’ in the way it is often used by physicists re the info of material objects . The way the term information is used in physics such as Wheelers its from bits does not conform to my understanding of information as a noun describing the process of informing. How can abiotic matter be informed as it cannot make any choices and hence cannot be informed. Living organisms make choices and use information to make those choices for all living creatures from bacteria to humans including physicists :-). The only information involved in the uses by physicists describing our universe of the word information is that associated with physicists becoming informed of what is happening in the universe they observe. I am happy that they want to discuss this info but I believe there is a need to distinguish between info (biotic) and info (abiotic) as used in physics. The use of a single word information for both categories is confusing, at least it is for me. This ambiguity reminds me of Shannon's use of the term entropy to define his notion of information having taken the advice of Von Neumann. <span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">A story is told that Shannon did not know what to call his measure and von Neumann advised him to call it entropy because nobody knows what it means and that it would therefore give Shannon an advantage in any debate (Campbell, Jeremy 1982, p. 32 </span> <i class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Grammatical Man: Information, Entropy, Language, and Life. </span></i><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">New York: Simon and Schuster.</span> <span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">). </span> Shannon defined information in such a way that he admitted was not necessarily about meaning. Information without meaning has no meaning for me. Kind regards to all - Bob Logan</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br class=""></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">______________________</span></div></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12px;"><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br class=""></span></div>Robert K. Logan</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Fellow University of St. Michael's College</span></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan" class="">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a></span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications" class="">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><a href="https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/" class="">https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/</a></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><br class=""></span><div style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div><div class="">On Mar 26, 2017, at 5:39 AM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Dear <font style="size: 2" class="">Brian, </font>Arturo, Karl, Alex,
Lars-Goran, Gyuri, and FIS colleagues,</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Thank you for your remarks!</font></div>
<div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class="">
<div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma" class="">
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">What is important is that every theory has its
own understanding of the concepts it uses.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">For “foreigners”, theirs meaning may be strange
or unknown.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Some times, concepts of one theory contradict to
corresponded concepts from other theory.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">For years, I have met many different definitions
of concept “information” and many more kinds of its use.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">From materialistic up to weird point of
view...</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">To clear my own understanding, I shall give you a
simple example:</font></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">CAN THE CAN DRINK BEER ?</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">CAN THE CAN EXCHANGE BEER WITH THE GLASS
?</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">The can is used by humans for some goals, for
instance to store some beer for a given period.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">But the can itself “could not understand” its own
functions and what the can can do with beer it contains.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">All its functionality is a human’s
consciousness model.</font></div>
<div class=""><font style="size: 4" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Can cannot exchange beer with the
glass if there are no human activity or activity of additional devices invented
by humans to support this.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Further:</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">CAN THE ARTIFICIAL LEG WALK ?</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">You know the answer ... Human with an artificial
leg can walk ...</font></div>
<div class=""><font style="size: 4" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">All functionality of artificial
leg is a result from human’s consciousness modeling and
invention.</font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">In addition:</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">IS THE “PHYSICAL INFORMATION” INFORMATION
?</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">If it is, the first question is how to measure
the quantity and quality of such “information” and who can do this?
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">I prefer the answer “NO” – “physical information”
is a concept which means something else but not “information” as it is in my
understanding.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">From my point of view, “physical information” is
a kind of reflection (see “Theory of reflections” of T.Pavlov). </font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Every reflection may be assumed as information
iff (if and only if) there exist a subjective information expectation to be
resolved by given reflection.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">For physical information this low is not
satisfied. Because of this, I prefer to call this phenomenon simply “a
reflection”. </font></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">And so on ...</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class="">Finally:</font></font></font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""></font></font></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class="">Human been invented too much kinds of <span tabindex="-1" lang="en" id="result_box" class="short_text"><span class="">prostheses including ones for our
intellectual functionalities, i.e. many different kinds of electronic devices
which, in particular, can generate some electrical<font style="size: +0" class="">,</font> light, etc. impulses, which we assume as
“information”; usually <font style="size: +0" class="">a
</font></span></span></font></font><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class="">combination of
impulses we assume as s structure to be recognized by us as “information”.
</span></span></font></font></font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class=""></span></span></font></font></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class="">A special kind
of <span tabindex="-1" lang="en" id="result_box" class="short_text"><span class="">prostheses are
<font style="size: 4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class="">Robots. They
have</span></span></font></font></font> some autonomous functionalities but are
still very far from living consciousness. The level of complexity of robot’s
consciousness is far of human’s one. Someone may say that robots understand and
exchange “information”, but still they only react on incoming signals following
the instructions given by humans. Theirs functioning is similar to human ones
but only similar. They may recognize some structures of signals and exchange
such ones with other robots or living creatures. Maybe someone wants to call
this “information exchange”, but, after Shannon, I call this “sending and/or
receiving signals”. And automatic reaction to signals.
</span></span></span></span></font></font></font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class=""></span></span></span></span></font></font></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">One may say, the Robot (Computer) memory
contains information but really it</font> <font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">does
not contain anything – it has its own structure which can be changed temporally
of permanently by external electrical impulses.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Is the human memory the same – a structure which
can be changed temporally of permanently by external or internal signals? I
think – yes, It is!</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">What is the difference? Why we may say that the
living creatures process information but not living couldn’t? </font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">The answer is: because the living creatures may
create and resolve the “information expectation” with very high level of
complexity. </font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Maybe in the future robots will can do it
...</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Such robot I call “INFOS”. It will be artificial
living creature. Possibly with some biological elements.
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">It will be very interesting and amazing to see
how the can can drink beer :-) And very dangerous – where the beer will be kept
if the can can drink it?</font></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">I hope, now it
is clear why I assert that (now!) non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange
information”.</font></div>
<div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Friendly
regards</font></div>
<div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Krassimir</font></div>
<div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> <font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5" class="">
<div style="font-color: black" class=""><b class="">From:</b> <a title="karl.javorszky@gmail.com" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" class="">Karl Javorszky</a> </div>
<div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Friday, March 24, 2017 8:24 PM</div>
<div class=""><b class="">To:</b> <a title="alexhankey@gmail.com" href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" class="">Alex Hankey</a> </div>
<div class=""><b class="">Cc:</b> <a title="markov@foibg.com" href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" class="">Krassimir Markov</a> ; <a title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" class="">Arturo Tozzi</a>
; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">FIS
Webinar</a> </div>
<div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange
information”</div></div></div>
<div class=""> </div></div>
<div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class="">
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<div class="">1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:<br class=""></div>machines, computers, do
exchange information. It would be against cultural conventions to say that the
notification that the refrigerator sends to your phone's app "to-do-list" of the
content "milk only 0.5 liter available" is not an information.<br class=""><br class=""></div>The
signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my dashboard, saying "tire pressure
front right wheel is critically low" is a clear case of information, whether I
read it or not.<br class=""><br class=""></div>2) Let me add to the point Alex states, namely that
the "form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only
scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have
personally seen in the scientific literature", (Alex, will you please restate in
the present context, for the present discussion, your formulation) the
following:<br class=""><br class=""></div>I have given in my work "Natural orders - de ordinibus
naturalibus" (ISBN <span class="gmail-st">9783990571378</span>) the following
definition of the term "information":<br class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">8.3.3.3
<span class="">
</span><span style="BACKGROUND: yellow" class="">Information is a description of what is
not the case</span>. [Let <i class="">x = a</i></span><i class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">k</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">. This is a
statement, no information contained. Let <i class="">x = a</i></span><i class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">k</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class=""><span class=""> </span>and
<i class="">k </i></span><i class=""><span lang="FR-CA" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" class=""><span class=""><symbol for
is_included_in></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">
{1,2,...,k,...,n}</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">. This statement
contains the information <i class="">k </i></span><i class=""><span lang="FR-CA" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" class=""><span class=""><symbol for
is_not_included_in></span></span></i><i class=""><span lang="FR-CA" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" class=""><span class=""></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">{1,2,...,k-1,k+1,...,n}</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">.]<br class=""></span></div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">(Sorry for the
included & not-included symbols not making it thru the simplified text
editor in use here.)<br class=""><br class=""></span></div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">Karl<br class=""><br class=""></span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-24 18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex Hankey <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr" class="">BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones 'exchange
information' (in the abstract, digital sense) all the time. Including this
email.
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the
form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only
scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have
personally seen in the scientific literature. </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Best wishes, </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Alex Hankey </div>
<div class=""> </div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Let me remember that:</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could
“exchange information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as
psychological faults. </font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or
reflections !</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><em class="">Sorry for this n-th my remark ... </em></font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Krassimir</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class="">
<div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma" class="">
<div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5" class="">
<div class=""><b class="">From:</b> <a title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>
</div>
<div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM</div>
<div class=""><b class="">To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
</div>
<div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly
important?</div></div></div>
<div class=""> </div></div>
<div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class="">
<blockquote class="" type="cite"><br class=""><br class="">
<div class="">Dear <span style="" class="">Lars-Göran, </span></div>
<div class=""><font class="">I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet,
therefore it will be my last FIS mail for the next days. </font></div>
<div class=""><font class=""><br class=""></font></div>
<div class=""><font class="">First of all, in special relativity, a</font>n
observer is NOT by definition a material object that can receive and store
incoming energy from other objects. <font class=""><br class=""></font>
<div class="">In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which
a set of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of an
observer is not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is
experiencing events, but rather it is a particular mathematical context
which objects and events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special
relativity occur whether or not there is a "material object that can
recieve and store incoming energy from other objects" within the inertial
reference frame to witness them.</div>
<div class=""> </div>Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light)
that crosses a cosmic zone close to the sun. The photon "detects"
(and therefore can interact with) a huge sun surface (because of its high
speed), while we humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a
much smaller sun surface. </div>
<div class="">Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than
the humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the
same sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may
exchange with the sun a different information content. </div>
<div class="">If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost
infinite, fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more
information with the sun than we humans can.</div>
<div class=""></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical
quantity, rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed
and of the time of the "observer". </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> <br class=""><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><b class="">Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">AA Professor
Physics, University North Texas</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Comput Intell Lab, University
Manitoba</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><a style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126); LINE-HEIGHT: normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank" class="">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><wbr class=""> </span></font><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><br class="">
<blockquote class="" type="cite">----Messaggio originale----<br class="">Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson"
<<a href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank" class="">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi<wbr class="">.uu.se</a>><br class="">Data:
24/03/2017 14.50<br class="">A: "<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>"<<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozzia<wbr class="">rturo@libero.it</a>><br class="">Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is
information truly important?<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev <a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>:</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear Fisers, </div>
<div class="">a big doubt...</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional
to its 2D horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking
equations.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who
watches a black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon,
due to Einstein's equations.</div>
<div class="">Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than
an observer at rest, who sees a smaller
horizon…</div></div></blockquote>An observer is by definition a material
object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects.
Since it requires infinite energy to accelerate even a slighest
object to the velocity of light, no observer can travel at the speed of
light. That means that your thought experiment is based in inconsistent
assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn. </div>
<div class="">Lars-Göran Johansson</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity,
rather just a very subjective measure...<br class=""><br class=""><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><b class="">Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">AA
Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Comput Intell Lab, University
Manitoba</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><a style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126); LINE-HEIGHT: normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank" class="">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><wbr class=""> </span></font><br class=""></div></div><br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Fis
mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bi<wbr class="">n/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">Lars-Göran Johansson</div>
<div class=""><a href="mailto:lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank" class="">lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.<wbr class="">uu.se</a></div>
<div class="">0701-679178</div>
<div class=""> </div></div><br class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class="">
<hr class="">
______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Fis mailing
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<div class=""> </div></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class="">-- <br class="">
<div class="m_6572504432977552712gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class="">Alex
Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class="">
(M.I.T.)<br class="">Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,<br class="">SVYASA,
Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle<br class="">Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India
<br class="">Mobile (Intn'l): <a href="tel:+44%207710%20534195" target="_blank" value="+447710534195" class="">+44 7710 534195</a> </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class=""></span>
<div class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class="">Mobile
(India) <a href="tel:+91%2090080%2008789" target="_blank" value="+919008008789" class="">+91 900 800 8789</a></span></div>
<div class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class="">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" class="">______________________________<wbr class="">______________________________</div>
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Philosophy</a></span></div></span></div></div></div></div></font></span></div><br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Fis
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