<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 26 Mar 2017, at 16:30, Bob Logan wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hello Krassimir - I agree with the sentiments you expressed - they seem to parallel my thoughts.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am often puzzled by the use of the term ‘information’ in the way it is often used by physicists re the info of material objects . The way the term information is used in physics such as Wheelers its from bits does not conform to my understanding of information as a noun describing the process of informing.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Wheeler used "information" in the sense of Shannon. It is a quantitative measure of something, a degree of of surprise, where a subject can be informed of one bit of information by letting it able to distinguish two things, like 0 and 1. It is a sort of "atom" of digital information, and it has today a sort of cousin in quantum mechanics. It occurs also in arithmetic, because classical universal machine, nor the quantum one, can know which universal machine emulate them. </div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""> How can abiotic matter be informed as it cannot make any choices and hence cannot be informed. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Why? It can imprint the difference which makes the difference. Choice are relative to our ability to predict ourself, which we can't. "We" are not that abiotic matter, but abiotic matter can support determinatically "our" choices. But "our" is fuzzify by belonging to infinitely many histories. Consciousness, the first person experience is a selector.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Living organisms make choices and use information to make those choices for all living creatures from bacteria to humans including physicists :-). </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And very plausibly mathematicians too :)</div><div><br></div><div>And the numbers too, and all objects in any Turing universal system.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">The only information involved in the uses by physicists describing our universe of the word information is that associated with physicists becoming informed of what is happening in the universe they observe.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Becoming informed in what happens in their brain, and assuming there is some most probable universal computation or neighborhood. But assuming mechanism, below our substitution level, there is an infinity of universal computations "in competition".</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""> I am happy that they want to discuss this info but I believe there is a need to distinguish between info (biotic) and info (abiotic) as used in physics.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is that not the difference between un code i and the function phi_i that it describes for some universal machine u?</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""> The use of a single word information for both categories is confusing, at least it is for me.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is a problem in the interdisciplinary fields. The solution consists in making clear which notion we use, and be careful in not mixing the different meaning of the terms. They can sometimes be related. In computer science: information is used in Shannon sense most of time, and information with meaning is handled by mathematical semantic, where a reality (alas called "model" by logicians) is "modeled" by mathematical structures, like groups, fields, (N, +, *), Hilbert space, but in AI it can be the plausible neighborhood of a robot.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""> This ambiguity reminds me of Shannon's use of the term entropy to define his notion of information having taken the advice of Von Neumann. <span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">A story is told that Shannon did not know what to call his measure and von Neumann advised him to call it entropy because nobody knows what it means and that it would therefore give Shannon an advantage in any debate (Campbell, Jeremy 1982, p. 32 </span> <i class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Grammatical Man: Information, Entropy, Language, and Life. </span></i><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">New York: Simon and Schuster.</span> <span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">). </span> Shannon defined information in such a way that he admitted was not necessarily about meaning. Information without meaning has no meaning for me.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree with you, sometimes "information" is used ambiguously. But I think we can solve that issue in making clear which sense we use in this or that context.</div><div><br></div><div>Information without meaning has some meaning for Shannon, though, and for me too. In my approach, it plays some role, as you get one bit of Shannon information in a self-duplicating experience, but I use al lot information-with-meaning too. "meaning " refers to some reality we, or the machine/number in consideration, bet on. We can define it for simpler machine than us, but can't for machine like us, of or equivalent complexity. Computer science (mathematical logic) seems to explain why the meaning of "meaning" might be necessary deluding, preventing the machine from some reductionist theories.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that the term machine is ambiguous. Sometimes it refers to the body, sometimes to the behavior, sometimes to the possible subjecst which that machine-body makes it possible for him/her to manifest itself relatively to the possible universal machines emulating them.The can can't drink the beer, indeed.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards to everybody, ... er ... no, to every-soul :)</div><div><br></div><div>Bruno Marchal</div><div>ULB-IRIDIA</div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><a href="http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></span></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br class=""></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">______________________</span></div></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12px;"><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br class=""></span></div>Robert K. Logan</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Fellow University of St. Michael's College</span></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan" class="">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a></span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications" class="">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><a href="https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/" class="">https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/</a></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><br class=""></span><div style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> <br class=""><div><div class="">On Mar 26, 2017, at 5:39 AM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">Dear <font style="size: 2" class="">Brian, </font>Arturo, Karl, Alex, Lars-Goran, Gyuri, and FIS colleagues,</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">Thank you for your remarks!</font></div> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma" class=""> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">What is important is that every theory has its own understanding of the concepts it uses.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">For “foreigners”, theirs meaning may be strange or unknown.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Some times, concepts of one theory contradict to corresponded concepts from other theory.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">For years, I have met many different definitions of concept “information” and many more kinds of its use.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">From materialistic up to weird point of view...</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">To clear my own understanding, I shall give you a simple example:</font></div> <div class=""> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">CAN THE CAN DRINK BEER ?</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">CAN THE CAN EXCHANGE BEER WITH THE GLASS ?</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">The can is used by humans for some goals, for instance to store some beer for a given period.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">But the can itself “could not understand” its own functions and what the can can do with beer it contains.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">All its functionality is a human’s consciousness model.</font></div> <div class=""><font style="size: 4" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Can cannot exchange beer with the glass if there are no human activity or activity of additional devices invented by humans to support this.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Further:</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">CAN THE ARTIFICIAL LEG WALK ?</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">You know the answer ... Human with an artificial leg can walk ...</font></div> <div class=""><font style="size: 4" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">All functionality of artificial leg is a result from human’s consciousness modeling and invention.</font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">In addition:</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">IS THE “PHYSICAL INFORMATION” INFORMATION ?</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">If it is, the first question is how to measure the quantity and quality of such “information” and who can do this? </font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">I prefer the answer “NO” – “physical information” is a concept which means something else but not “information” as it is in my understanding.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">From my point of view, “physical information” is a kind of reflection (see “Theory of reflections” of T.Pavlov). </font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Every reflection may be assumed as information iff (if and only if) there exist a subjective information expectation to be resolved by given reflection.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">For physical information this low is not satisfied. Because of this, I prefer to call this phenomenon simply “a reflection”. </font></div> <div class=""> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">And so on ...</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class="">Finally:</font></font></font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""></font></font></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class="">Human been invented too much kinds of <span tabindex="-1" lang="en" id="result_box" class="short_text"><span class="">prostheses including ones for our intellectual functionalities, i.e. many different kinds of electronic devices which, in particular, can generate some electrical<font style="size: +0" class="">,</font> light, etc. impulses, which we assume as “information”; usually <font style="size: +0" class="">a </font></span></span></font></font><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class="">combination of impulses we assume as s structure to be recognized by us as “information”. </span></span></font></font></font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class=""></span></span></font></font></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class="">A special kind of <span tabindex="-1" lang="en" id="result_box" class="short_text"><span class="">prostheses are <font style="size: 4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class="">Robots. They have</span></span></font></font></font> some autonomous functionalities but are still very far from living consciousness. The level of complexity of robot’s consciousness is far of human’s one. Someone may say that robots understand and exchange “information”, but still they only react on incoming signals following the instructions given by humans. Theirs functioning is similar to human ones but only similar. They may recognize some structures of signals and exchange such ones with other robots or living creatures. Maybe someone wants to call this “information exchange”, but, after Shannon, I call this “sending and/or receiving signals”. And automatic reaction to signals. </span></span></span></span></font></font></font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""><font style="face: calibri" class=""><font style="size: 4" class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class=""><span tabindex="-1" lang="en" class="short_text"><span class=""></span></span></span></span></font></font></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">One may say, the Robot (Computer) memory contains information but really it</font> <font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">does not contain anything – it has its own structure which can be changed temporally of permanently by external electrical impulses.</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Is the human memory the same – a structure which can be changed temporally of permanently by external or internal signals? I think – yes, It is!</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">What is the difference? Why we may say that the living creatures process information but not living couldn’t? </font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">The answer is: because the living creatures may create and resolve the “information expectation” with very high level of complexity. </font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Maybe in the future robots will can do it ...</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Such robot I call “INFOS”. It will be artificial living creature. Possibly with some biological elements. </font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">It will be very interesting and amazing to see how the can can drink beer :-) And very dangerous – where the beer will be kept if the can can drink it?</font></div> <div class=""> </div> <div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">I hope, now it is clear why I assert that (now!) non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”.</font></div> <div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Friendly regards</font></div> <div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Krassimir</font></div> <div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f5f5f5" size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> <font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""> </font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5" class=""> <div style="font-color: black" class=""><b class="">From:</b> <a title="karl.javorszky@gmail.com" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" class="">Karl Javorszky</a> </div> <div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Friday, March 24, 2017 8:24 PM</div> <div class=""><b class="">To:</b> <a title="alexhankey@gmail.com" href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" class="">Alex Hankey</a> </div> <div class=""><b class="">Cc:</b> <a title="markov@foibg.com" href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" class="">Krassimir Markov</a> ; <a title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" class="">Arturo Tozzi</a> ; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">FIS Webinar</a> </div> <div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”</div></div></div> <div class=""> </div></div> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div class="">1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:<br class=""></div>machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to your phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter available" is not an information.<br class=""><br class=""></div>The signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my dashboard, saying "tire pressure front right wheel is critically low" is a clear case of information, whether I read it or not.<br class=""><br class=""></div>2) Let me add to the point Alex states, namely that the "form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen in the scientific literature", (Alex, will you please restate in the present context, for the present discussion, your formulation) the following:<br class=""><br class=""></div>I have given in my work "Natural orders - de ordinibus naturalibus" (ISBN <span class="gmail-st">9783990571378</span>) the following definition of the term "information":<br class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">8.3.3.3 <span class=""> </span><span style="BACKGROUND: yellow" class="">Information is a description of what is not the case</span>. [Let <i class="">x = a</i></span><i class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">k</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">. This is a statement, no information contained. Let <i class="">x = a</i></span><i class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">k</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class=""><span class=""> </span>and <i class="">k </i></span><i class=""><span lang="FR-CA" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" class=""><span class=""><symbol for is_included_in></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class=""> {1,2,...,k,...,n}</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">. This statement contains the information <i class="">k </i></span><i class=""><span lang="FR-CA" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" class=""><span class=""><symbol for is_not_included_in></span></span></i><i class=""><span lang="FR-CA" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: symbol" class=""><span class=""></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">{1,2,...,k-1,k+1,...,n}</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">.]<br class=""></span></div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">(Sorry for the included & not-included symbols not making it thru the simplified text editor in use here.)<br class=""><br class=""></span></div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "liberation serif",serif" class="">Karl<br class=""><br class=""></span></div> <div class="gmail_extra"> <div class=""> </div> <div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-24 18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex Hankey <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br class=""> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid" type="cite"> <div dir="ltr" class="">BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones 'exchange information' (in the abstract, digital sense) all the time. Including this email. <div class=""> </div> <div class="">If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen in the scientific literature. </div> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">Best wishes, </div> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">Alex Hankey </div> <div class=""> </div></div> <div class="gmail_extra"> <div class=""> <div class="h5"> <div class=""> </div> <div class="gmail_quote">On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid" type="cite"> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">Let me remember that:</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological faults. </font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class=""><em class="">Sorry for this n-th my remark ... </em></font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">Friendly greetings</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class="">Krassimir</font></div> <div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div> <div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma" class=""> <div class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div> <div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5" class=""> <div class=""><b class="">From:</b> <a title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a> </div> <div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM</div> <div class=""><b class="">To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> </div> <div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important?</div></div></div> <div class=""> </div></div> <div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""> <blockquote class="" type="cite"><br class=""><br class=""> <div class="">Dear <span style="" class="">Lars-Göran, </span></div> <div class=""><font class="">I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS mail for the next days. </font></div> <div class=""><font class=""><br class=""></font></div> <div class=""><font class="">First of all, in special relativity, a</font>n observer is NOT by definition a material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other objects. <font class=""><br class=""></font> <div class="">In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of an observer is not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing events, but rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness them.</div> <div class=""> </div>Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic zone close to the sun. The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact with) a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller sun surface. </div> <div class="">Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange with the sun a different information content. </div> <div class="">If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information with the sun than we humans can.</div> <div class=""></div> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time of the "observer". </div> <div class=""> </div> <div class=""> <br class=""><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><b class="">Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><a style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126); LINE-HEIGHT: normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank" class="">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><wbr class=""> </span></font><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><br class=""> <blockquote class="" type="cite">----Messaggio originale----<br class="">Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" <<a href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank" class="">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi<wbr class="">.uu.se</a>><br class="">Data: 24/03/2017 14.50<br class="">A: "<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>"<<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozzia<wbr class="">rturo@libero.it</a>><br class="">Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> <div class=""> <blockquote type="cite" class=""> <div class="">24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev <a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank" class="">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>:</div> <div class=""> </div> <div class=""> <div class="">Dear Fisers, </div> <div class="">a big doubt...</div> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.</div> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's equations.</div> <div class="">Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon…</div></div></blockquote>An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy to accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn. </div> <div class="">Lars-Göran Johansson</div> <div class=""><br class=""> <blockquote type="cite" class=""> <div class=""> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure...<br class=""><br class=""><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><b class="">Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><font face="courier new, monospace" class="">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></div><div class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font face="courier new, monospace" class=""><a style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; COLOR: rgb(5,68,126); LINE-HEIGHT: normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank" class="">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal" class=""><wbr class=""> </span></font><br class=""></div></div><br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bi<wbr class="">n/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div> <div class=""> </div> <div class=""> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px;" class=""> <div class="">Lars-Göran Johansson</div> <div class=""><a href="mailto:lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank" class="">lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.<wbr class="">uu.se</a></div> <div class="">0701-679178</div> <div class=""> </div></div><br class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""> <hr class=""> ______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bi<wbr class="">n/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class=""></div></div></div></div><br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bi<wbr class="">n/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""> <div class=""> </div></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class="">-- <br class=""> <div class="m_6572504432977552712gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"> <div dir="ltr" class=""> <div class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class="">Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class=""> (M.I.T.)<br class="">Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,<br class="">SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle<br class="">Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India <br class="">Mobile (Intn'l): <a href="tel:+44%207710%20534195" target="_blank" value="+447710534195" class="">+44 7710 534195</a> </span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class=""></span> <div class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class="">Mobile (India) <a href="tel:+91%2090080%2008789" target="_blank" value="+919008008789" class="">+91 900 800 8789</a></span></div> <div class=""><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class=""> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" class="">______________________________<wbr class="">______________________________</div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" class=""><span style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif" class=""><br class=""></span></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" class=""><span style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif" class=""><a style="COLOR: rgb(17,85,204)" href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00796107/119/3" target="_blank" class="">2015 JPBMB Special Issue on Integral Biomathics: Life Sciences, Mathematics and Phenomenological Philosophy</a></span></div></span></div></div></div></div></font></span></div><br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-<wbr class="">bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div> <div class=""> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div> _______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class=""></div></div><br class=""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<br></blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>