<div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues,<div><br></div><div>Though this is my first post I will spare my introduction to keep the message short. For now I'd simply like to thank everyone for the stimulating conversations and share a few thoughts regarding the current discussion, in which I sympathize with Krassimir, Bob, and others unconvinced that information transfer happens between non-living objects. For me this is caused by the following points:</div><div><br></div><div>(a) One can identify identical information in non-identical physical phenomena, and non-identical information in identical physical phenomena, which suggests that information is <i>not</i> identical to (and therefore shouldn't be confused with) the physical objects that carry or afford it. I give examples and discuss this and other problematic beliefs about information in an article published in <i>Library Trends 63</i>(3), though it is written primarily for information professionals and thus may bore some FIS readers.</div><div><br></div><div>(b) If information were physical, it couldn't be in two places at once, suggesting that information transfer would cause the source to lose the sent information. If we apply the type/token distinction we can instead say that in a case of successful information transfer the receiver obtains a token of the correct information <i>type</i> (i.e,. the same type as the source's token). Since types are <i>abstract</i>, so is information. Timpson argued this about Shannon information in his influential PhD dissertation about the nature of quantum information, and I adapted it to non-Shannon information in a short paper that will appear in this year's <i>Canadian Association for Information Science </i>conference proceedings.</div><div><br></div><div>(c) In my experience, examples that seem like demonstrations of physical or natural information can be restated or explained with sufficient physical causes and effects and<i> no mention</i> of information. This and the above problems suggest information is not truly present in such cases (if information isn't physical, non-living objects can't exchange it) but is instead a convenient fiction superimposed by those describing the transfer. Indeed, when I have tasked biologists to explain where <i>exactly</i> the information <i>is </i>in DNA, it always remained couched in figurative speech and eluded confident identification with some physical entity.</div><div><br></div><div>So, while it may be counter-intuitive (as Alex and Karl noted) to state that information transfer does <i>not</i> happen between non-living objects, I find it <i>unsound</i> to state that it does, and appeasing intuition is a desideratum, not a criterion, of the work of scientists and philosophers: I believe we owe more fidelity to knowledge than to common parlance or intuition, which are mercurial. I don't believe this means such views of information shouldn't be adopted for <i>use</i> -- the productivity of information theory or DNA 'information' is undeniable -- just that we should be careful <i>how</i> and <i>how far</i> we let our convenient fictions extend into theorising about and characterisation of <i>information</i>. But I continue to follow this topic with an open mind and look forward to reading others' views.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Jesse David Dinneen</div><div>McGill University</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Moisés André Nisenbaum <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br" target="_blank">moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div dir="ltr">Dear Bob.
<div>I agree 100%. We must classify information in abiotic and biotic, but, in my opinion, both are parts of "information".</div>
<div>Some scientists, including Tom Stonier, tried to define information considering the syntactic and semantic aspects of information.</div>
<div>Can we draw a parallel between these concepts?</div>
<div>Abiotic <--> syntactic <--> Shannon <--> machines</div>
<div>Biotic <--> semantic <--> human</div>
<div>Shall we abandon the insights from Shannon theory to construct a theory of information (unified and non reductionist)?<br>
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<div>Attached a draw to illustrate the Von Newmann - Shannon talking :-)<br>
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<div>Um abraço</div>
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<div>Moisés</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote"><span>2017-03-26 11:30 GMT-03:00 Bob Logan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">logan@physics.utoronto.ca</a>></span>:<br>
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span>Hello Krassimir - I agree with the sentiments you expressed - they seem to parallel my thoughts.
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</span><div>I am often puzzled by the use of the term ‘information’ in the way it is often used by physicists re the info of material objects . The way the term information is used in physics such as Wheelers its from bits does not conform to my understanding of
information as a noun describing the process of informing. How can abiotic matter be informed as it cannot make any choices and hence cannot be informed. Living organisms make choices and use information to make those choices for all living creatures from
bacteria to humans including physicists :-). The only information involved in the uses by physicists describing our universe of the word information is that associated with physicists becoming informed of what is happening in the universe they observe. I am
happy that they want to discuss this info but I believe there is a need to distinguish between info (biotic) and info (abiotic) as used in physics. The use of a single word information for both categories is confusing, at least it is for me. This ambiguity
reminds me of Shannon's use of the term entropy to define his notion of information having taken the advice of Von Neumann. <span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman"">A story is told that Shannon did not know what to call his measure and von
Neumann advised him to call it entropy because nobody knows what it means and that it would therefore give Shannon an advantage in any debate (Campbell, Jeremy 1982, p. 32 </span> <i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman"">Grammatical Man:
Information, Entropy, Language, and Life. </span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman"">New York: Simon and Schuster.</span> <span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"times new roman"">). </span> Shannon defined information in such a
way that he admitted was not necessarily about meaning. Information without meaning has no meaning for me. Kind regards to all - Bob Logan</div><div><div class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433h5">
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Robert K. Logan</span><span class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px">
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Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span>
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Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><span class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516Apple-style-span" style="text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px">
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<div>On Mar 26, 2017, at 5:39 AM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div><font size="4">Dear <font>Brian, </font>Arturo, Karl, Alex, Lars-Goran, Gyuri, and FIS colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Thank you for your remarks!</font></div>
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<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">What is important is that every theory has its own understanding of the concepts it uses.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">For “foreigners”, theirs meaning may be strange or unknown.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Some times, concepts of one theory contradict to corresponded concepts from other theory.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">For years, I have met many different definitions of concept “information” and many more kinds of its use.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">From materialistic up to weird point of view...</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">To clear my own understanding, I shall give you a simple example:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">CAN THE CAN DRINK BEER ?</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">CAN THE CAN EXCHANGE BEER WITH THE GLASS ?</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">The can is used by humans for some goals, for instance to store some beer for a given period.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">But the can itself “could not understand” its own functions and what the can can do with beer it contains.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">All its functionality is a human’s consciousness model.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Can cannot exchange beer with the glass if there are no human activity or activity of additional devices invented by humans to support this.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Further:</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">CAN THE ARTIFICIAL LEG WALK ?</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">You know the answer ... Human with an artificial leg can walk ...</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">All functionality of artificial leg is a result from human’s consciousness modeling and invention.</font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">In addition:</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">IS THE “PHYSICAL INFORMATION” INFORMATION ?</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">If it is, the first question is how to measure the quantity and quality of such “information” and who can do this?
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">I prefer the answer “NO” – “physical information” is a concept which means something else but not “information” as it is in my understanding.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">From my point of view, “physical information” is a kind of reflection (see “Theory of reflections” of T.Pavlov).
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Every reflection may be assumed as information iff (if and only if) there exist a subjective information expectation to be resolved by given reflection.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">For physical information this low is not satisfied. Because of this, I prefer to call this phenomenon simply “a reflection”.
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">And so on ...</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"><font><font>Finally:</font></font></font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"><font><font></font></font></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"><font><font>Human been invented too much kinds of
<span lang="en" id="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516result_box" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text">
<span>prostheses including ones for our intellectual functionalities, i.e. many different kinds of electronic devices which, in particular, can generate some electrical<font>,</font> light, etc. impulses, which we assume as “information”; usually
<font>a </font></span></span></font></font><font><font><span lang="en" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text"><span>combination of impulses we assume as s structure to be recognized by us as “information”.
</span></span></font></font></font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"><font><font><span lang="en" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text"><span></span></span></font></font></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"><font><font><span lang="en" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text"><span>A special kind of
<span lang="en" id="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516result_box" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text">
<span>prostheses are <font face="Calibri"><font><font><span lang="en" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text"><span>Robots. They have</span></span></font></font></font> some autonomous functionalities but are still very far from living consciousness. The level
of complexity of robot’s consciousness is far of human’s one. Someone may say that robots understand and exchange “information”, but still they only react on incoming signals following the instructions given by humans. Theirs functioning is similar to human
ones but only similar. They may recognize some structures of signals and exchange such ones with other robots or living creatures. Maybe someone wants to call this “information exchange”, but, after Shannon, I call this “sending and/or receiving signals”.
And automatic reaction to signals. </span></span></span></span></font></font></font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"><font><font><span lang="en" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text"><span><span lang="en" class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516short_text"><span></span></span></span></span></font></font></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">One may say, the Robot (Computer) memory contains information but really it</font> <font size="4" face="Calibri">does not contain anything – it has its own structure which can be changed temporally of permanently by external
electrical impulses.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Is the human memory the same – a structure which can be changed temporally of permanently by external or internal signals? I think – yes, It is!</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">What is the difference? Why we may say that the living creatures process information but not living couldn’t?
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">The answer is: because the living creatures may create and resolve the “information expectation” with very high level of complexity.
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Maybe in the future robots will can do it ...</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">Such robot I call “INFOS”. It will be artificial living creature. Possibly with some biological elements.
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri">It will be very interesting and amazing to see how the can can drink beer :-) And very dangerous – where the beer will be kept if the can can drink it?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)" size="4" face="Calibri">I hope, now it is clear why I assert that (now!) non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”.</font></div>
<div><font style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)" size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)" size="4" face="Calibri">Friendly regards</font></div>
<div><font style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)" size="4" face="Calibri">Krassimir</font></div>
<div><font style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)" size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)" size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font style="background-color:rgb(245,245,245)" size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> <font size="4" face="Calibri"> </font>
</div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-color:rgb(245,245,245)">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="karl.javorszky@gmail.com" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">
Karl Javorszky</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 24, 2017 8:24 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="alexhankey@gmail.com" href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank">
Alex Hankey</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="markov@foibg.com" href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">
Krassimir Markov</a> ; <a title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">
Arturo Tozzi</a> ; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">
FIS Webinar</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] non-living objects COULD NOT “exchange information”</div>
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<div>1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:<br>
</div>
machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to your phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter available" is not an information.<br>
<br>
</div>
The signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my dashboard, saying "tire pressure front right wheel is critically low" is a clear case of information, whether I read it or not.<br>
<br>
</div>
2) Let me add to the point Alex states, namely that the "form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen in the scientific literature", (Alex,
will you please restate in the present context, for the present discussion, your formulation) the following:<br>
<br>
</div>
I have given in my work "Natural orders - de ordinibus naturalibus" (ISBN <span class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516gmail-st">
9783990571378</span>) the following definition of the term "information":<br>
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">8.3.3.3 <span>
</span><span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-color:yellow">Information is a description of what is not the case</span>. [Let
<i>x = a</i></span><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">k</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">. This is a statement, no information contained. Let
<i>x = a</i></span><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">k</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif"><span> </span>and
<i>k </i></span><i><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:symbol"><span><symbol for is_included_in></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif"> {1,2,...,k,...,n}</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">.
This statement contains the information <i>k </i></span><i><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:symbol"><span><symbol for is_not_included_in></span></span></i><i><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:symbol"><span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">{1,2,...,k-<wbr>1,k+1,...,n}</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">.]<br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">(Sorry for the included & not-included symbols not making it thru the simplified text editor in use here.)<br>
<br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">Karl<br>
<br>
</span></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-24 18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex Hankey <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones 'exchange information' (in the abstract, digital sense) all the time. Including this email.
<div> </div>
<div>If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen in the scientific literature.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best wishes, </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Alex Hankey </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
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<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div><font size="4">Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Let me remember that:</font></div>
<div><font size="4">The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could “exchange information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as psychological faults.
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or reflections !</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><em>Sorry for this n-th my remark ... </em></font></div>
<div><font size="4">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
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<div><b>From:</b> <a title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">
tozziarturo@libero.it</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">
fis@listas.unizar.es</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly important?</div>
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<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<br>
<div>Dear <span>Lars-Göran, </span></div>
<div><font>I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore it will be my last FIS mail for the next days.
</font></div>
<div><font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font>First of all, in special relativity, a</font>n observer is NOT by definition a material object that can receive and store incoming energy from other objects.
<font><br>
</font>
<div>In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a set of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of an observer is not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing events, but rather it is a particular
mathematical context which objects and events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur whether or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to
witness them.</div>
<div> </div>
Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that crosses a cosmic zone close to the sun. The photon "detects" (and therefore can interact with) a huge sun surface (because of its high speed), while we humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact
with) a much smaller sun surface. </div>
<div>Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange with the sun a different information
content. </div>
<div>If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite, fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information with the sun than we humans can.</div>
<div></div>
<div> </div>
<div>In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time of the "observer".
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> <br>
<div class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace"><b>Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></div>
<div class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst">
<span style="line-height:115%"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></div>
<div class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></div>
<div class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></div>
<div class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst">
<font face="courier new, monospace"><a style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(5,68,126);line-height:normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal"><wbr> </span></font><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">----Messaggio originale----<br>
Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson" <<a href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi<wbr>.uu.se</a>><br>
Data: 24/03/2017 14.50<br>
A: "<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>"<<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozzia<wbr>rturo@libero.it</a>><br>
Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is information truly important?<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev <a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">
tozziarturo@libero.it</a>:</div>
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<div>Dear Fisers, </div>
<div>a big doubt...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to its 2D horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who watches a black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due to Einstein's equations.</div>
<div>Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon…</div>
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An observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy to accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer can travel at the speed of light. That
means that your thought experiment is based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be drawn.
</div>
<div>Lars-Göran Johansson</div>
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<div>In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather just a very subjective measure...<br>
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<div class="m_6069718146004422495gmail-m_7001370129349956593gmail-m_6164705554538196497gmail-m_6938594256548187589gmail-m_-5539000988779729433m_-2403045613645609150m_-7889428926929991516m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst">
<span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace"><b>Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></div>
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<span style="line-height:115%"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></div>
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<font face="courier new, monospace"><a style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(5,68,126);line-height:normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="font-size:14px;line-height:normal"><wbr> </span></font><br>
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<div>Lars-Göran Johansson</div>
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