<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:<br></div>machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to your phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter available" is not an information.<br><br></div>The signals my car's pressure sensor sends to my dashboard, saying "tire pressure front right wheel is critically low" is a clear case of information, whether I read it or not.<br><br></div>2) Let me add to the point Alex states, namely that the "form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only
scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I
have personally seen in the scientific literature", (Alex, will you please restate in the present context, for the present discussion, your formulation) the following:<br><br></div>I have given in my work "Natural orders - de ordinibus naturalibus" (ISBN <span class="gmail-st">9783990571378</span>) the following definition of the term "information":<br><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">8.3.3.3 <span> </span><span style="background:yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%">Information is a description of what is not the case</span>.
[Let <i>x = a</i></span><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">k</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">. This is a statement, no information contained.
Let <i>x = a</i></span><i><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">k</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif"><span> </span>and <i>k </i></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:symbol" lang="FR-CA"><span><symbol for is_included_in></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif"> {1,2,...,k,...,n}</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">. This statement contains the information <i>k </i></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:symbol" lang="FR-CA"><span><symbol for is_not_included_in></span></span></i><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:symbol" lang="FR-CA"><span></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">{1,2,...,k-1,k+1,...,n}</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">.]<br></span></div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">(Sorry for the included & not-included symbols not making it thru the simplified text editor in use here.)<br><br></span></div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"liberation serif",serif">Karl<br><br></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-03-24 18:51 GMT+01:00 Alex Hankey <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">BUT, in common parlance, computers and mobile phones 'exchange information' (in the abstract, digital sense) all the time. Including this email. <div><br></div><div>If you wish to cleanly restrict yourself to semantic content, the the form of information that I presented to FiS a year ago offers the only scientifically based,mathematical physics form of 'information' that I have personally seen in the scientific literature. </div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes, </div><div><br></div><div>Alex Hankey </div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 24 March 2017 at 15:25, Krassimir Markov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:14pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000">
<div><font size="4">Dear Arturo and FIS Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Let me remember that:</font></div>
<div><font size="4">The basic misunderstanding that non-living objects could
“exchange information” leads to many principal theoretical as well as
psychological faults. </font></div>
<div><font size="4">For instance, photon could exchange only energy and/or
reflections !</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><em>Sorry for this n-th my remark ... </em></font></div>
<div><font size="4">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="tozziarturo@libero.it" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 24, 2017 4:52 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] I: Re: Is information truly
important?</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;FONT-FAMILY:"Calibri";FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;DISPLAY:inline">
<blockquote><br><br>
<div>Dear <span style="COLOR:rgb(0,0,0)">Lars-Göran, </span></div>
<div><font color="#000000">I prefer to use asap my second FIS bullet, therefore
it will be my last FIS mail for the next days. </font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">First of all, in special relativity, a</font>n
observer is NOT by definition a material object that can receive and store
incoming energy from other objects. <font color="#000000"><br></font>
<div>In special relativity, an observer is a frame of reference from which a
set of objects or events are being measured. Speaking of an observer is
not specifically hypothesizing an individual person who is experiencing
events, but rather it is a particular mathematical context which objects and
events are to be evaluated from. The effects of special relativity occur
whether or not there is a "material object that can recieve and store incoming
energy from other objects" within the inertial reference frame to witness
them.</div>
<div> </div>Furthermore, take a photon (traveling at speed light) that
crosses a cosmic zone close to the sun. The photon "detects" (and
therefore can interact with) a huge sun surface (because of its high speed),
while we humans on the Earth "detect" (and can interact with) a much smaller
sun surface. </div>
<div>Therefore, the photon may exchange more information with the sun than the
humans on the Earth: both the photon and the humans interact with the same
sun, but they "detect" different surfaces, and therefore they may exchange
with the sun a different information content. </div>
<div>If we also take into account that the photon detects an almost infinite,
fixed time, this means once again that it can exchange much more information
with the sun than we humans can.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In sum, once again, information does not seem to be a physical quantity,
rather just a very subjective measure, depending on the speed and of the time
of the "observer". </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <br>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace"><b>Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT:115%"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA Professor
Physics, University North Texas</font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University
Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font face="courier new, monospace"><a style="FONT-SIZE:14px;COLOR:rgb(5,68,126);LINE-HEIGHT:normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><wbr> </span></font><br></p></div><br><br>
<blockquote>----Messaggio originale----<br>Da: "Lars-Göran Johansson"
<<a href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi<wbr>.uu.se</a>><br>Data: 24/03/2017 14.50<br>A:
"<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>"<<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozzia<wbr>rturo@libero.it</a>><br>Ogg: Re: [Fis] Is
information truly important?<br><br><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>24 mars 2017 kl. 13:15 skrev <a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Dear Fisers, </div>
<div>a big doubt...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We know that the information of a 3D black hole is proportional to
its 2D horizon, according to the Bekenstein-Hawking equations.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, an hypotetical observer traveling at light speed (who
watches a black hole at rest) detects a very large black hole horizon, due
to Einstein's equations.</div>
<div>Therefore, he detects more information from the black hole than an
observer at rest, who sees a smaller horizon…</div></div></blockquote>An
observer is by definition a material object that can recieve and store
incoming energy from other objects. Since it requires infinite energy
to accelerate even a slighest object to the velocity of light, no observer
can travel at the speed of light. That means that your thought experiment is
based in inconsistent assumptions and no vaild conclusions from them can be
drawn. </div>
<div>Lars-Göran Johansson</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>In sum, information does not seem to be a physical quantity, rather
just a very subjective measure...<br><br>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace"><b>Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="LINE-HEIGHT:115%"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA Professor
Physics, University North Texas</font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord,
Italy</font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><font face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University
Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092MsoNormalCxSpFirst"><font face="courier new, monospace"><a style="FONT-SIZE:14px;COLOR:rgb(5,68,126);LINE-HEIGHT:normal" href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" target="_blank">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal"><wbr> </span></font><br></p></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Fis
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bi<wbr>n/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br></div></blockquote></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word;WHITE-SPACE:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);LETTER-SPACING:normal;TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div>Lars-Göran Johansson</div>
<div><a href="mailto:lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.<wbr>uu.se</a></div>
<div>0701-679178</div>
<div> </div></div><br class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="m_6572504432977552712m_8936583650354385092Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br><br></blockquote><br><br></blockquote><br>
<p>
</p><hr>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br><div class="m_6572504432977552712gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"> (M.I.T.)<br>Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,<br>
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