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-------- Mensaje reenviado --------
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Asunto:
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<td>Re: [Fis] WHY WE ARE HERE? ...AN UNPLEASANT ANSWER?!</td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Fecha: </th>
<td>Mon, 6 Mar 2017 21:36:55 -0600</td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">De: </th>
<td>Jerry LR Chandler <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com"><jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com></a></td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Para: </th>
<td>fis Webinar <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a></td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">CC: </th>
<td>Pedro Marijuan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"><pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es></a>, Bruno
Marchal <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be"><marchal@ulb.ac.be></a></td>
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Bruno, List:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">de Chardin has also cast a long and durable shadow
over my mind for decades for decades. His writings both provides
some guidance on the form of time and opens rich questions that
bring fruit.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> While I appreciate the flow of concepts emerging
from Bruno’s “poetry”, its guidance appears to exclude chemistry
and biology.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thus, Bruno’s associations are not so clear to me.
So, I will be a “spoil sport” and look toward a more
“life-friendly” flow of both symbols and numbers with only a tad
of poetry. </div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 3, 2017, at 11:51 AM, Bruno Marchal
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" class="">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div class="">
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<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My favorite de Chardin's proposition is,
from memory:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> "We are not human beings having
spiritual experiences, we are spiritual beings
having human experiences.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
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class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">That is close to the theology of the
neopytagorean Moderatus of Gades, and close to the
neoplatonist Plotinus, Porphyry, ... And they are
formally close to the "theology" of the universal
numbers. (and even intuitively so assuming the
computationalist hypothesis in cognitive science,
through sequence of thought experiences).</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The tensions between the computational natures of
discrete and the “continuous” numbers haunts any attempt to
make mathematical sense out of scientific hypotheses. I am
uncertain as to the logical implication of the
“computationalist’s hypothesis" in this context.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Is the reference grounded in Curry’s combinatorial logic
or otherwise? </div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
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class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">It reminds me also of Shrî Aurobindo,
when he said:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">"What, you ask, was the beginning of
it all?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And it is this ...</div>
<div class="">Existence that multiplied itself</div>
<div class="">For sheer delight of being</div>
<div class="">And plunged into numberless trillions
of forms</div>
<div class="">So that it might</div>
<div class="">Find </div>
<div class="">Itself</div>
<div class="">Innumerably"</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
I have some minor problems with the present
essay, but substituting some of the excessively
teleological "purposive" terms about life
(perhaps all of them?), and using instead a more
austere description of organizational facts....
who knows! If life contains a unitary principle,
I think it is more subtle, and cannot be
expressed in unilateral physical terms<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Provably so if we assume mechanism.
Contrarily to a widely spread opinion: mechanism is
not compatible with even quite weak form of
materialism, or physicalism.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The connotations of the term “mechanism” varies widely
from discipline to discipline.</div>
<div>The sense of “mechanism” in chemistry infers an
electrical path among the discrete paths of illations that
“glue” the parts into a whole. By sublation, this same
sense is used in molecular biology and the biomedical
sciences. </div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Bruno, could you expand on your usage in this context?
How do the senses of “computationism" and “mechanism” refer
to the material world, if at all?</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
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class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">such as maximum
entropy production, symmetry restoration, free
energy maximization, etc. Well, symmetry and
information have more clout and hidden
complexity, so I express not a rejection but
some uneasiness regarding too direct
"orthogenetic" views on biological and social
evolution.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
My further suggestion --could it be a good idea
that you change Monod's style "unpleasantness"
(Oh, we the accidental discover that we are
alone in the cosmos!) and point towards some of
Teilhard's and Vernadsky's noosphere and the
Omega Point? You would have several curious
items to choose...<br class="">
<br class="">
More opinions??<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">God created the natural numbers, and saw
that it was good.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Would it be more accurate to that “"God" created the internal
creativity of the atomic numbers."<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
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class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Then she said: add yourself, and saw
that is was good.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Then she said: multiply yourself. And
then ... she said: oops, ... and lose control.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
The addition of the atomic numbers has bounds because it is
not linked to the concept of variables. How does one see the
internal controls without the geometry associated with
variables? (In the absence of a Cartesian co-ordinate
system?)<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
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class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Like the complexity of the prime numbers
distribution already illustrates, the logicians know
that classical logic + addition of integers +
multiplication of integers leads to the
Church-Turing Universality of the reality under
concern, "generating *all* universal numbers, and
they know that the universal machines, or universal
numbers put a lot of mess in Plato Heaven. The price
of universality is loss of controllability, and the
appearances of realms defying all complete theories.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
The perplexity of the atomic numbers creates its internal
co-ordination without an apparent source of “universality” or
“universal numbers”. The ampliative logic of electrical
bindings appears to create irregular self-regulation without a
concept of mechanical control. Can a vision of "Plato’s
heaven” take root and grow without universal numbers? In
Curry combinatorial logic sufficient?<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
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class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The physical reality is the border of
the arithmetical reality "seen from inside (by the
universal numbers)". The breaking of symmetries are
in the universal mind, like the symmetries
themselves. The universal mind is the mind common to
all universal numbers. ("universal" always taken in
the Church-Turing-Kleene-Post-Markov sense).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The "god" of the machine (the relatively
locally finite being) seems to be like a universal
baby playing hide and seek with itself.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I doubt we are alone in the probable
apparent Cosmos that we can observe, but we are not
alone in Arithmetic, provably so if you assume
Digital Mechanism (a thesis equivalent with the
belief that consciousness is invariant for some
recursive permutations). </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>If I suppose that the dynamics of the associations of
atomic numbers are internally motivated (that is,
metabolism, a.k.a., organic mathematics),</div>
<div>What within Life pre-supposes invariance? </div>
<div>What within Life pre-supposes a stationarity such that
recursive permutations are meaningful arithmetically? </div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Does Organic Mathematics reach it’s zenith in the genesis
of physical and mathematical poetry?</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Just some fleeting thoughts on the phenomenology of life
during a long winter's night in the cold Northland.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Jerry</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
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class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Best wishes to you, and all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Bruno</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
Best wishes to all--Pedro<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
El 24/02/2017 a las 16:24,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">tozziarturo@libero.it</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>escribió:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:239441002.519301487949866977.JavaMail.httpd@webmail-60.iol.local"
type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">Dear FISers, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">hi! </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">A possible novel discussion (if
you like it, of course!): </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><br class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><font class="" face="Times New
Roman, serif"><span style="font-size:
13.3333px;" class=""><b class="">A
SYMMETRY-BASED ACCOUNT OF LIFE AND
EVOLUTION</b></span></font><br
class="">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">After the Big Bang, a gradual
increase in thermodynamic entropy is
occurring in our Universe (Ellwanger,
2012). Because of the relationships
between entropy and symmetries (</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Times
New Roman', serif;" class="">Roldán et
al., 2014</span><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">), the number of cosmic
symmetries, the highest possible at the
very start, is declining as time passes.
Here the evolution of living beings comes
into play. Life is a space-limited
increase of energy and complexity, and
therefore of symmetries. The evolution
proceeds towards more complex systems
(Chaisson, 2010), until more advanced
forms of life able to artificially
increase the symmetries of the world.
Indeed, the human brains’ cognitive
abilities not just think objects and
events more complex than the physical ones
existing in Nature, but build highly
symmetric crafts too. For example, human
beings can watch a rough stone, imagine an
amygdala and build it from the same stone.
Humankind is able, through its ability to
manipulate tools and technology, to
produce objects (and ideas, i.e.,
equations) with complexity levels higher
than the objects and systems encompassed
in the pre-existing physical world.
Therefore, human beings are naturally
built by evolution in order to increase
the number of environmental symmetries.
This is in touch with recent claims,
suggesting that the brain is equipped with
a number of functional and anatomical
dimensions higher than the 3D environment
(Peters et al., 2017). Intentionality,
typical of the living beings and in
particular of the human mind, may be seen
as a mechanism able to increase
symmetries. As Dante Alighieri stated (<i
class="">Hell,</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i
class="">XXVI, 118-120</i>), “y<i
class="">ou were not made to live as
brutes, but to follow virtue and
knowledge</i>”. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">In touch with Spencer’s (1860)
and Tyler’s (1881) claims, it looks like
evolutionary mechanisms tend to achieve
increases in environmental complexity, and
therefore symmetries (Tozzi and Peters,
2017). Life is produced in our Universe
in order to restore the initial lost
symmetries. At the beginning of life,
increases in symmetries are just local,
e.g., they are related to the
environmental niches where the living
beings are placed. However, in long
timescales, they might be extended to the
whole Universe. For example, Homo
sapiens, in just 250.000 years, has been
able to build the Large Hadron Collider,
where artificial physical processes make
an effort to approximate the initial
symmetric state of the Universe.
Therefore, life is a sort of gauge field
(Sengupta et al., 2016), e.g., a
combination of forces and fields that try
to counterbalance and restore, in very
long timescales, the original cosmic
symmetries, lost after the Big Bang. Due
to physical issues, the “homeostatic”
cosmic gauge field must be continuous,
e.g., life must stand, proliferate and
increase in complexity over very long
timescales. This is the reason why every
living being has an innate tendency
towards self-preservation and
proliferation. With the death, continuity
is broken. This talks in favor of
intelligent life scattered everywhere in
the Universe: if a few species get
extinct, others might continue to
proliferate and evolve in remote planets,
in order to pursue the goal of the final
symmetric restoration. In touch with
long timescales’ requirements, it must be
kept into account that life has been set
up after a long gestation: a childbearing
which encompasses the cosmic birth of
fermions, then atoms, then stars able to
produce the more sophisticated matter
(metals) required for molecular life. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">A symmetry-based framework gives
rise to two opposite feelings, by our
standpoint of human beings. On one side,
we achieve the final answer to
long-standing questions: “<i class="">why
are we here?</i>”, “<i class="">Why does
the evolution act in such a way?</i>”,
an answer that reliefs our most important
concerns and gives us a<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i
class="">sense</i>; on the other side,
however, this framework does not give us
any hope: we are just micro-systems
programmed in order to contribute to
restore a partially “broken”
macro-system. And, in case we succeed in
restoring, through our mathematical
abstract thoughts and craftsmanship, the
initial symmetries, we are nevertheless
doomed to die: indeed, the environment
equipped with the starting symmetries does
not allow the presence of life.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpLast"
style="text-align: justify; line-height:
normal;"><b class=""><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">REFERENCES<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst"
style="margin-bottom: 6pt; text-align:
justify; text-indent: -18pt; line-height:
normal;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class="">1)<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Times New Roman';"
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Chaisson
EJ. 2010. Energy Rate Density as a
Complexity Metric and Evolutionary
Driver. Complexity, v 16, p 27, 2011;
DOI: 10.1002/cplx.20323.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-align: justify; text-indent:
-18pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">2)<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Times New Roman';"
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Ellwanger
U. 2012. From the Universe to the
Elementary Particles. A First
Introduction to Cosmology and the
Fundamental Interactions. Springer-Verlag
Berlin Heidelberg. ISBN
978-3-642-24374-5.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-align: justify; text-indent:
-18pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">3)<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Times New Roman';"
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Peters
JF, Ramanna S, Tozzi A, Inan E. 2017.
Frontiers Hum Neurosci. BOLD-independent
computational entropy assesses functional
donut-like structures in brain fMRI
image. doi: 10.3389/fnhum.2017.00038. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-align: justify; text-indent:
-18pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">4)<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Times New Roman';"
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Sengupta
B, Tozzi A, Coray GK, Douglas PK, Friston
KJ. 2016. Towards a Neuronal Gauge
Theory. PLOS Biology 14 (3): e1002400.
doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1002400.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-align: justify; text-indent:
-18pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">5)<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Times New Roman';"
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Spencer
H. 1860. System of Synthetic
Philosophy. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
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class="">6)<span
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A, Peters JF. 2017. Towards Topological
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EB. 1881. Anthropology: an Introduction
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<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin:
12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height:
20.700000762939453px;"><span
style="font-size: 14px; line-height:
normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font
class="" face="courier new, monospace"><b
class="">Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin:
12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height:
20.700000762939453px;"><span
style="line-height: 20.700000762939453px;"
class=""><font class="" face="courier new,
monospace">AA Professor Physics,
University North Texas</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin:
12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height:
20.700000762939453px;"><span
style="font-size: 14px; line-height:
normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font
class="" face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician
ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin:
12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height:
20.700000762939453px;"><span
style="font-size: 14px; line-height:
normal; text-align: start;" class=""><font
class="" face="courier new, monospace">Comput
Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin:
12pt 0cm; text-align: justify; line-height:
20.700000762939453px;"><font class=""
face="courier new, monospace"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/"
style="font-size: 14px; color: rgb(5,
68, 126); line-height: normal;
text-align: start;" class="">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span
style="font-size: 14px; line-height:
normal; text-align: start;" class=""> </span></font><br
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</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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