<div>Dear Howard, </div><div>your concept of a donut-like Universe is very interesting...</div><div>In touch with it, we recently published a paper that describes pre-big bang scenarios involving a Monster Group, e.g. a multisymmetric structure describable on a torus: </div><div>http://www.mdpi.com/2078-2489/7/4/73</div><div><br></div><div>However, I think that the "torus-like" concept can be extended also to biological structures. </div><div>Indeed, we demonstrated the presence of a functional torus-like structure in the brain: </div><div>http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11571-016-9379-z</div><div>http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00038/full</div><div><br></div><div>Furthermore, in a still unpublished paper (under review), we also proposed a torus-like structure, in order to explain living cells functions: </div><div>http://vixra.org/abs/1610.0021<br></div><div><br></div><div>All this stuff is quite intriguing, and point towards a donut-like structure as a general principle underlying both physical and biological systems...</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br><br><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;text-align:justify;
line-height:115%;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;"><font face="courier new, monospace"><b>Arturo Tozzi</b></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;text-align:justify;
line-height:115%;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="line-height: 115%;"><font face="courier new, monospace">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;text-align:justify;
line-height:115%;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;"><font face="courier new, monospace">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;text-align:justify;
line-height:115%;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;"><font face="courier new, monospace">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="margin-top:12.0pt;margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;text-align:justify;
line-height:115%;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><font face="courier new, monospace"><a href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/" style="font-size: 14px; color: rgb(5, 68, 126); line-height: normal; text-align: start;">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</a><span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; text-align: start;"> </span></font><br></p></div><br>
<br>
<blockquote>
----Messaggio originale----<br>
Da: HowlBloom@aol.com<br>
Data: 15/02/2017 1.04<br>
A: <pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es>, <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
Ogg: Re: [Fis] Further Discussion . . .<br>
<br>
<!--
-->
<font id="role_document" color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana">
<div> </div>
<div>brilliant summation, Pedro.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>we are missing the metaphors with which to explain the difference between
death and life or between smart communities like bacterial colonies and
consciousness.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>in The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates, i tell the tale of the
origin of the term "emergent property." But, alas, over 140
years after the concept's introduction, we still lack the tools that would
help us understand life and consciousness in scientific ways.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>i suspect the key will come from adding to the bottom
up vocabulary of reductionism by looking at top down
approaches. and i suspect that certain emergent properties are
possibilities of the cosmos waiting for matter to find them. very a la
wagner in his Arrival of the Fittest.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>but if emergent properties exist in an implicit future, in possibility
space, how did they get there? a hint: god is not the answer.
god is a way of dodging the question.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>i've hit all these issues in The God Problem. and i ache for the new
metaphors.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>with warmth and oomph--howard</div>
<div><font lang="0" size="2" face="Arial" family="SANSSERIF" ptsize="10">----------<br>Howard Bloom<br>Howardbloom.net<br>author of : The
Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History
("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind
from the Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New
Yorker), The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism
("Impressive, stimulating, and tremendously enjoyable."James Fallows, National
Correspondent, The Atlantic), The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates
("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich), How I
Accidentally Started the Sixties (“a monumental,epic, glorious literary
achievement.” Timothy Leary), and The Muhammad Code: How a Desert Prophet
Gave You ISIS, al Qaeda, and Boko Haram--or How Muhammad Invented Jihad (“a
terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam,” David Swindle, PJ
Media).<br>Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Former Visiting
Scholar—Graduate Psychology Department, NewYork University<br>Founder:
International PaleopsychologyProject; founder and chair, Space Development
Steering Committee; Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society; Founding
Board Member, The Darwin Project; Board Of Governors, National Space Society;
Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New York Academy of
Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American
Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and
Evolution Society, International Society for Human Ethology, Scientific
Advisory Board Member, Lifeboat Foundation.
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>In a message dated 2/13/2017 10:32:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es writes:</div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color="#000000" size="2" face="Arial">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Howard,<br><br>In any extent, your beautiful
questions are beyond my reach. I think that the physical characterization of
life cannot even provide a whim on your demands; but something of the
informational might provide some limited inroads: prokaryots could not achieve
any significant progress in morphological or differentiation capabilities
within their "colonies". Conversely, eukaryotes developed multicellularity due
to their far higher information content (genome), their far improved signaling
resources, their endless energy supply in support of the general combinatoric
problem-solving tools (mitochondria), and the incorporation of a new locus
(cytoskeleton) capable of feeling the force field and reacting to it. A chain
of amazing inventions is behind any of the existing branches of complex
life... can do they admit a general explanation, not just based on natural
selection, but on the improved evolvability that has been obtained by being
able to explore any molecular-recognition contraption (within partially
collapsed solution state-spaces, a la Wagner?). Otherwise we are lead to admit
a deep enigma, still uncharted, or to look for external "intelligence"
solutions outside the limits of current scientific paradigms.<br><br>What is
your own opinion??<br><br>Best wishes--Pedro<br><br> El 09/02/2017
a las 22:44, <a title="mailto:HowlBloom@aol.com" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:HowlBloom@aol.com">HowlBloom@aol.com</a> escribió:<br></div>
<blockquote cite="mid:8dfbe9.42a35696.45ce3cbe@aol.com" type="cite">
<font color="#000000" size="2" face="Verdana">
<div> </div>
<div>fascinating thinking, pedro.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>it triggers this:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><font size="2" face="Verdana">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt">The stages of development
are far more than real-world problem solvers.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>They set artificial challenges, then
achieve them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Making a
caterpillar that works is an<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>enormously complex challenge.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span>Making a working butterfly is also immensely more complex than any
simple challenge mounted by the environment.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Changing from caterpillar to
butterfly in one lifetime is unachievable beyond all belief.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>And these grotesquely artificial
goals can’t be accounted for by a simple goal of survival.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>The goal, if anything, seems to be
to accomplish the ornate, the unnecessary, the flamboyant, and the
impossible.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>How does a drive
toward impossible flamboyance get built into<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>life?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>How does<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>it get built into the
cosmos?<o:p></o:p></p></font></span></div>
<div>with warmth and oomph--howard</div>
<div><font lang="0" face="Arial" family="SANSSERIF" ptsize="10">----------<br>Howard Bloom<br>Howardbloom.net<br>author of : The
Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History
("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass
Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and
sobering"-The New Yorker), The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of
Capitalism ("Impressive, stimulating, and tremendously enjoyable."James
Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), The God Problem: How A
Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara
Ehrenreich), How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“a monumental,epic,
glorious literary achievement.” Timothy Leary), and The Muhammad Code:
How a Desert Prophet Gave You ISIS, al Qaeda, and Boko Haram--or How
Muhammad Invented Jihad (“a terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on
Islam,” David Swindle, PJ Media).<br>Former Core Faculty Member, The
Graduate Institute; Former Visiting Scholar—Graduate Psychology Department,
NewYork University<br>Founder: International PaleopsychologyProject; founder
and chair, Space Development Steering Committee; Founding Board Member: Epic
of Evolution Society; Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project; Board Of
Governors, National Space Society; Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media
Lab; member: New York Academy of Sciences, American Association for the
Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political
Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, International Society for
Human Ethology, Scientific Advisory Board Member, Lifeboat Foundation.
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>In a message dated 2/9/2017 3:22:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, <a title="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
writes:</div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color="#000000" face="Arial">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Marcus and Colleagues,<br><br>Thanks for
your interest. The Chengdu's Conference represented for me an occasion to
return to my beginnings, in the 80's, when I prepared a PhD Thesis:
"Natural Intelligence: On the evolution of biological information
processing". It was mostly following a top down approach. But in some of
the discussions outdoors of the conference (a suggestion for the next one
in Shanghai: plenary discussion sessions should also be organized) I
realized that biomolecular things have changed quite a lot. One could go
nowadays the other way around: from the molecular-informational
organization of cellular life, to intelligence of the cell's behavior
withing the environment. The life cycle es essential. It provides the
source of "meaning" (as I have often argued in discussions in the list)
but it is also the reference for "intelligence". Communicating with the
environment and self-producing by means of the environmental affordances
have to be smoothly organized so that the stages of the life cycle may be
advanced, and that the "problems" arising from the internal or the
external may be adequately solved. It means signalling and self-modifying
in front of the open-ended environmental problems, sensing and acting
coherently... It strangely connects with the notion of human "story" and
the communication cycle in the humanities. Relating intelligence to goal
accomplishment or to an architecture of goals as usually done in
computational realms implies that the real life course (or the surrogate)
is reduced to a very narrow segment. True intelligence evaporates.
<br>These were some of my brute reflections that I have to keep musing
around (I saw interesting repercussions for cellular signaling
"narratives" too). Maybe this is also a good opportunity for other parties
of that conference to expostulate their own impressions --very exciting
presentations both from Chinese and Western colleagues
there.<br><br>Thanks again,<br>--Pedro<br><br>El 08/02/2017 a las 14:14,
Marcus Abundis escribió:<br></div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CACJqm9w49FPTTqy257t9CQsABW_+ASFm4b4yj_JymdJ2-xQKAQ@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">> In next weeks some further discussion might be
started, but at the time being, the slot is empty (any ideas?)<
<div><br></div>
<div>Hi Pedro,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>For my part I would appreciate a chance to hear more about the
thoughts you have been developing (even if they are very rough) as
related to the talk you gave in China last summer.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Alternatively, further thoughts on Gordana's talk would be nice to
hear.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>For both of these talks, you both shared your presentation stack .
. . but there was so much information in both of those talks, it would
be nice to have some of "unpacked."</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Marcus</div>
<div></div></div><br>
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<p><br></p><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a title="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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------------------------------------------------- </pre><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis
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<p><br></p><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a title="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a title="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
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