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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear List,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I agree with Terry that we should not be bound by our own partial theories. We need an integrated view of information that shows its
relations in all of its various forms. There is a family resemblance in the ways it is used, and some sort of taxonomy can be constructed. I recommend that of Luciano Floridi. His approach is not unified (unlike my own, reported on this list), but compatible
with it, and is a place to start, though it needs expansion and perhaps modification. There may be some unifying concept of information, but its application to all the various ways it has been used will not be obvious, and a sufficiently general formulation
my well seem trivial, especially to those interested in the vital communicative and meaningful aspects of information. I also agree with Loet that pessimism, however justified, is not the real problem. To some extent it is a matter of maturity, which takes
both time and development, not to mention giving up cherished juvenile enthusiasms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I might add that constructivism, with its positivist underpinnings, tends to lead to nominalism and relativism about whatever is out
there. I believe that this is a major hindrance to a unified understanding. I understand that it appeared in reaction to an overzealous and simplistic realism about science and other areas, but I think it through the baby out with the bathwater.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I have been really ill, so my lack of communication. I am pleased to see this discussion, which is necessary for the field to develop
maturity. I thought I should add my bit, and with everyone a Happy New Year, with all its possibilities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Warmest regards to everyone,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Loet Leydesdorff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> December 31, 2016 12:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Terrence W. DEACON' <deacon@berkeley.edu>; 'Dai Griffiths' <dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com>; 'Foundations of Information Science Information Science' <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is life?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">We agree that such a theory is a ways off, though you some are far more pessimisitic about its possibility than me. I believe that we would do best to focus on the hole that needs filling in
rather than assuming that it is an unfillable given.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Dear Terrence and colleagues,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">It is not a matter of pessimism. We have the example of “General Systems Theory” of the 1930s (von Bertalanffy and others). Only gradually, one
realized the biological metaphor driving it. In my opinion, we have become reflexively skeptical about claims of “generality” because we know the statements are framed within paradigms. Translations are needed in this fractional manifold.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">I agree that we are moving in a fruitful direction. Your book “Incomplete Nature” and “The Symbolic Species” have been important. The failing options
cannot be observed, but have to be constructed culturally, that is, in discourse. It seems to me that we need a kind of calculus of redundancy. Perspectives which are reflexively aware of this need and do not assume an unproblematic “given” or “natural” are
perhaps to be privileged nonetheless. The unobservbable options have first to be specified and we need theory (hypotheses) for this. Perhaps, this epistemological privilege can be used as a vantage point.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">There is an interesting relation to Husserl’s
<i>Critique of the European Sciences</i> (1935): The failing (or forgotten) dimension is grounded in “intersubjective intentionality.” Nowadays, we would call this “discourse”. How are discourses structured and how can they be translated for the purpose of
offering this “foundation”?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Happy New Year,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">My modest suggestion is only that in the absence of a unifying theory we should not privilege one partial theory over others and that in the absence of a global general theory we need to find
terminology that clearly identifies the level at which the concept is being used. Lacking this, we end up debating incompatible definitions, and defending our favored one that either excludes or includes issues of reference and significance or else assumes
or denies the relevance of human interpreters. With different participants interested in different levels and applications of the information concept—from physics, to computation, to neuroscience, to biosemiotics, to language, to art, etc.—failure to mark
this diversity will inevitably lead us in circles. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">I urge humility with precision and an eye toward synthesis.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Happy new year to all.\<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">— Terry<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Dai Griffiths <<a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks Stan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Yes, it's a powerful and useful process.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">My problem is that in this list, and in other places were such matters are discussed, we don't seem to be able to agree on the big picture, and the higher up the generalisations we go, the less
we agree. <br>
<br>
I'd like to keep open the possibility that we might be yoking ideas together which it may be more useful to keep apart. We are dealing with messy concepts in messy configurations, which may not always map neatly onto a generalisation model.
<br>
<span style="color:#888888"><br>
<span class="hoenzb">Dai</span></span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">On 22/12/16 16:45, Stanley N Salthe wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p1" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span class="m7584457439853745778gmail-s1"><span lang="EN-US">Dai --</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p1" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span class="m7584457439853745778gmail-s1"><span lang="EN-US">{phenomenon 1}</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">{phenomenon 2} --> {Phenomena 1 & 2} ---> {phenomena 1.2,3}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">{phenomenon 3}<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">The process from left to right is generalization.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">‘Information’ IS a generalization.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">generalities form the substance of philosophy. Info happens to a case<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> of generalization which can be mathematized, which in turn allows<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> it to be generalized even more.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">So, what’s the problem?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778gmail-p2" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">STAN<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Dai Griffiths <<a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">> Information is not “something out there” which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">I agree with this. And I wonder to what extent our problems in discussing information come from our desire to shoe-horn many different phenomena into the same construct. It would be possible to disaggregate the
construct. It be possible to discuss the topics which we address on this list without using the word 'information'. We could discuss redundancy, variety, constraint, meaning, structural coupling, coordination, expectation, language, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">In what ways would our explanations be weakened?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">In what ways might we gain in clarity?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">If we were to go down this road, we would face the danger that our discussions might become (even more) remote from everyday human experience. But many scientific discussions are remote from everyday human experience.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Dai<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">On 20/12/16 08:26, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Dear colleagues,
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">A distribution contains uncertainty that can be measured in terms of bits of information.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Alternatively: the expected information content
<i>H </i>of a probability distribution </span><span lang="EN-US"><img border="0" width="46" height="27" id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D268CD.2E1F8E10"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">is
</span><span lang="EN-US"><img border="0" width="153" height="31" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image002.png@01D268CD.2E1F8E10"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">H</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> is further defined as probabilistic entropy using Gibb’s formulation
of the entropy </span><span lang="EN-US"><img border="0" width="90" height="27" id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image003.png@01D268CD.2E1F8E10"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">This definition of information is an operational definition. In my opinion, we do not need an essentialistic definition by answering the question of “what is information?”
As the discussion on this list demonstrates, one does not easily agree on an essential answer; one can answer the question “how is information defined?” Information is not “something out there” which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Using essentialistic definitions, the discussion tends not to move forward. For example, Stuart Kauffman’s and Bob Logan’s (2007) definition of information “as natural
selection assembling the very constraints on the release of energy that then constitutes work and the propagation of organization.” I asked several times what this means and how one can measure this information. Hitherto, I only obtained the answer that colleagues
who disagree with me will be cited. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A">J</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> Another answer was that “counting”
may lead to populism. </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A">J</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Best,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Loet</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="margin-left:36.0pt">
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Loet Leydesdorff
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Professor, University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">;
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Associate Faculty,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU,
</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">University of Sussex;
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Guest Professor
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC,
</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Beijing;</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Visiting Professor,
</span><a name="m_7584457439853745778_m_3098479109588466"></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">,
University of London; </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/</a>citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Dick Stoute [<a href="mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 19, 2016 12:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> James Peters; <a href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu" target="_blank">ulan@umces.edu</a>; Alex Hankey; FIS Webinar<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is life?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">List,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">Please allow me to respond to Loet about the definition of information stated below. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree. I struggled with this definition for a long time before realising that Shannon was really discussing "amount of information" or the number of bits needed to convey a message.
He was looking for a formula that would provide an accurate estimate of the number of bits needed to convey a message and realised that the amount of information (number of bits) needed to convey a message was dependent on the "amount" of uncertainty that
had to be eliminated and so he equated these. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">It makes sense to do this, but we must distinguish between "amount of information" and "information". For example, we can measure amount of water in liters, but this does not tell
us what water is and likewise the measure we use for "amount of information" does not tell us what information is. We can, for example equate the amount of water needed to fill a container with the volume of the container, but we should not think that water
is therefore identical to an empty volume. Similarly we should not think that information is identical to uncertainty.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">By equating the number of bits needed to convey a message with the "amount of uncertainty" that has to be eliminated Shannon, in effect, equated opposites so that he could get an estimate
of the number of bits needed to eliminate the uncertainty. We should not therefore consider that this equation establishes what information is. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:72.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dick</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">On 18 December 2016 at 15:05, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">Dear James and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">Weaver (1949) made two major remarks about his coauthor (Shannon)'s contribution:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">2. "In particular, information must not be confused with meaning." (p. 8)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">The definition of information as relevant for a system of reference confuses information with "meaningful information" and thus sacrifices the surplus value of Shannon's counter-intuitive definition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">information observer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">that integrates interactive processes such as <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">physical interactions such photons stimulating the retina of the eye, human-machine interactions (this is the level that Shannon lives on), biological interaction such body temperature relative to touch ice or heat source, social interaction
such as this forum started by Pedro, economic interaction such as the stock market, ... [Lerner, page 1].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">We are in need of a theory of meaning. Otherwise, one cannot measure meaningful information. In a previous series of communications we discussed redundancy from this perspective.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">Lerner introduces mathematical expectation E[Sap] (difference between of a priory entropy [sic] and a posteriori entropy), which is distinguished from the notion of relative information Iap (Learner, page 7).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><img border="0" width="140" height="36" id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821m_6893889769850668776_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image004.png@01D268CD.2E1F8E10"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">)
expresses in bits of information the information generated when the a priori distribution
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><img border="0" width="46" height="27" id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821_x005f_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image005.png@01D268CD.2E1F8E10"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">is
turned into the a posteriori one </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><img border="0" width="50" height="27" id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821_x005f_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image006.png@01D268CD.2E1F8E10"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">.
This follows within the Shannon framework without needing an observer. I use this equation, for example, in my 1995-book
<i>The Challenge of Scientometrics</i> (Chapters 8 and 9), with a reference to Theil (1972). The relative information is defined as the
<i>H</i>/<i>H</i>(max).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">I agree that the intuitive notion of information is derived from the Latin “in-formare” (Varela, 1979). But most of us do no longer use “force” and “mass” in the intuitive (Aristotelian) sense.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Wingdings;color:black">J</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> The proliferation of the meanings of information if confused with “meaningful information” is indicative for an “index sui et falsi”, in my opinion.
The repetitive discussion lames the progression at this list. It is “like asking whether a glass is half empty or half full” (Hayles, 1990, p. 59).
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">This act of forming forming an information process results in the construction of an observer that is the owner [holder] of information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">The system of reference is then no longer the message, but the observer who provides meaning to the information (uncertainty). I agree that this is a selection process, but the variation first has to be specified independently (before it
can be selected.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:108.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US">And Lerner introduces the threshold between objective and subjective observes (page 27). This leads to a consideration selection and cooperation that includes entanglement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">I don’t see a direct relation between information and entanglement. An observer can be entangled.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Best, </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Loet</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">PS. Pedro: Let me assume that this is my second posting in the week which ends tonight. L.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Professor David (Dai) Griffiths<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Professor of Education<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">School of Education and Psychology<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">The University of Bolton<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Deane Road<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Bolton, BL3 5AB<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
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