<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.hoenzb
{mso-style-name:hoenzb;}
p.m7584457439853745778gmail-p1, li.m7584457439853745778gmail-p1, div.m7584457439853745778gmail-p1
{mso-style-name:m_7584457439853745778gmail-p1;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.m7584457439853745778gmail-s1
{mso-style-name:m_7584457439853745778gmail-s1;}
p.m7584457439853745778gmail-p2, li.m7584457439853745778gmail-p2, div.m7584457439853745778gmail-p2
{mso-style-name:m_7584457439853745778gmail-p2;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext, li.m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext, div.m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext
{mso-style-name:m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext, li.m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext, div.m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext
{mso-style-name:m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:"Consolas","serif";}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";}
span.EmailStyle28
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#44546A;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>We agree that such a theory is a ways off, though you some are far more pessimisitic about its possibility than me. I believe that we would do best to focus on the hole that needs filling in rather than assuming that it is an unfillable given.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear Terrence and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>It is not a matter of pessimism. We have the example of “General Systems Theory” of the 1930s (von Bertalanffy and others). Only gradually, one realized the biological metaphor driving it. In my opinion, we have become reflexively skeptical about claims of “generality” because we know the statements are framed within paradigms. Translations are needed in this fractional manifold.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>I agree that we are moving in a fruitful direction. Your book “Incomplete Nature” and “The Symbolic Species” have been important. The failing options cannot be observed, but have to be constructed culturally, that is, in discourse. It seems to me that we need a kind of calculus of redundancy. Perspectives which are reflexively aware of this need and do not assume an unproblematic “given” or “natural” are perhaps to be privileged nonetheless. The unobservbable options have first to be specified and we need theory (hypotheses) for this. Perhaps, this epistemological privilege can be used as a vantage point. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>There is an interesting relation to Husserl’s <i>Critique of the European Sciences</i> (1935): The failing (or forgotten) dimension is grounded in “intersubjective intentionality.” Nowadays, we would call this “discourse”. How are discourses structured and how can they be translated for the purpose of offering this “foundation”?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Happy New Year,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>My modest suggestion is only that in the absence of a unifying theory we should not privilege one partial theory over others and that in the absence of a global general theory we need to find terminology that clearly identifies the level at which the concept is being used. Lacking this, we end up debating incompatible definitions, and defending our favored one that either excludes or includes issues of reference and significance or else assumes or denies the relevance of human interpreters. With different participants interested in different levels and applications of the information concept—from physics, to computation, to neuroscience, to biosemiotics, to language, to art, etc.—failure to mark this diversity will inevitably lead us in circles. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I urge humility with precision and an eye toward synthesis.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Happy new year to all.\<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>— Terry<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Dai Griffiths <<a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p style='margin-left:.5in'>Thanks Stan,<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:.5in'>Yes, it's a powerful and useful process. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>My problem is that in this list, and in other places were such matters are discussed, we don't seem to be able to agree on the big picture, and the higher up the generalisations we go, the less we agree. <br><br>I'd like to keep open the possibility that we might be yoking ideas together which it may be more useful to keep apart. We are dealing with messy concepts in messy configurations, which may not always map neatly onto a generalisation model. <br><span style='color:#888888'><br><span class=hoenzb>Dai</span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On 22/12/16 16:45, Stanley N Salthe wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p1 style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m7584457439853745778gmail-s1>Dai --</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p1 style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m7584457439853745778gmail-s1>{phenomenon 1}</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'>{phenomenon 2} --> {Phenomena 1 & 2} ---> {phenomena 1.2,3}<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'>{phenomenon 3}<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'>The process from left to right is generalization.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'>‘Information’ IS a generalization.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'>generalities form the substance of philosophy. Info happens to a case<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'> of generalization which can be mathematized, which in turn allows<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'> it to be generalized even more.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'>So, what’s the problem?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778gmail-p2 style='margin-left:.5in'>STAN<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Dai Griffiths <<a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p style='margin-left:.5in'>> Information is not “something out there” which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:.5in'>I agree with this. And I wonder to what extent our problems in discussing information come from our desire to shoe-horn many different phenomena into the same construct. It would be possible to disaggregate the construct. It be possible to discuss the topics which we address on this list without using the word 'information'. We could discuss redundancy, variety, constraint, meaning, structural coupling, coordination, expectation, language, etc.<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:.5in'>In what ways would our explanations be weakened?<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:.5in'>In what ways might we gain in clarity? <o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:.5in'>If we were to go down this road, we would face the danger that our discussions might become (even more) remote from everyday human experience. But many scientific discussions are remote from everyday human experience.<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:.5in'>Dai<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On 20/12/16 08:26, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear colleagues, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>A distribution contains uncertainty that can be measured in terms of bits of information.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Alternatively: the expected information content <i>H </i>of a probability distribution </span><img border=0 width=46 height=27 id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D26338.FCF615F0"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>is </span><img border=0 width=153 height=31 id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image002.png@01D26338.FCF615F0"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>H</span></i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> is further defined as probabilistic entropy using Gibb’s formulation of the entropy </span><img border=0 width=90 height=27 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image003.png@01D26338.FCF615F0"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>This definition of information is an operational definition. In my opinion, we do not need an essentialistic definition by answering the question of “what is information?” As the discussion on this list demonstrates, one does not easily agree on an essential answer; one can answer the question “how is information defined?” Information is not “something out there” which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Using essentialistic definitions, the discussion tends not to move forward. For example, Stuart Kauffman’s and Bob Logan’s (2007) definition of information “as natural selection assembling the very constraints on the release of energy that then constitutes work and the propagation of organization.” I asked several times what this means and how one can measure this information. Hitherto, I only obtained the answer that colleagues who disagree with me will be cited. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> Another answer was that “counting” may lead to populism. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Professor, University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>; </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Associate Faculty, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>SPRU, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>University of Sussex; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Guest Professor </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Beijing;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Visiting Professor, </span><a name="m_7584457439853745778_m_3098479109588466"></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, University of London; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://scholar.google.com/" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/</a>citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Dick Stoute [<a href="mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 19, 2016 12:48 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a><br><b>Cc:</b> James Peters; <a href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu" target="_blank">ulan@umces.edu</a>; Alex Hankey; FIS Webinar<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is life?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>List,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Please allow me to respond to Loet about the definition of information stated below. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I agree. I struggled with this definition for a long time before realising that Shannon was really discussing "amount of information" or the number of bits needed to convey a message. He was looking for a formula that would provide an accurate estimate of the number of bits needed to convey a message and realised that the amount of information (number of bits) needed to convey a message was dependent on the "amount" of uncertainty that had to be eliminated and so he equated these. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It makes sense to do this, but we must distinguish between "amount of information" and "information". For example, we can measure amount of water in liters, but this does not tell us what water is and likewise the measure we use for "amount of information" does not tell us what information is. We can, for example equate the amount of water needed to fill a container with the volume of the container, but we should not think that water is therefore identical to an empty volume. Similarly we should not think that information is identical to uncertainty.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>By equating the number of bits needed to convey a message with the "amount of uncertainty" that has to be eliminated Shannon, in effect, equated opposites so that he could get an estimate of the number of bits needed to eliminate the uncertainty. We should not therefore consider that this equation establishes what information is. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Dick</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>On 18 December 2016 at 15:05, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>Dear James and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>Weaver (1949) made two major remarks about his coauthor (Shannon)'s contribution:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>2. "In particular, information must not be confused with meaning." (p. 8) <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>The definition of information as relevant for a system of reference confuses information with "meaningful information" and thus sacrifices the surplus value of Shannon's counter-intuitive definition.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>information observer<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>that integrates interactive processes such as <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>physical interactions such photons stimulating the retina of the eye, human-machine interactions (this is the level that Shannon lives on), biological interaction such body temperature relative to touch ice or heat source, social interaction such as this forum started by Pedro, economic interaction such as the stock market, ... [Lerner, page 1].<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>We are in need of a theory of meaning. Otherwise, one cannot measure meaningful information. In a previous series of communications we discussed redundancy from this perspective.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>Lerner introduces mathematical expectation E[Sap] (difference between of a priory entropy [sic] and a posteriori entropy), which is distinguished from the notion of relative information Iap (Learner, page 7).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=140 height=36 id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821m_6893889769850668776_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image004.png@01D26338.FCF615F0"></span><span style='color:black'>) expresses in bits of information the information generated when the a priori distribution </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=46 height=27 id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821_x005f_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image005.png@01D26338.FCF615F0"></span><span style='color:black'>is turned into the a posteriori one </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=50 height=27 id="m_7584457439853745778m_3098479109588466821_x005f_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image006.png@01D26338.FCF615F0"></span><span style='color:black'>. This follows within the Shannon framework without needing an observer. I use this equation, for example, in my 1995-book <i>The Challenge of Scientometrics</i> (Chapters 8 and 9), with a reference to Theil (1972). The relative information is defined as the <i>H</i>/<i>H</i>(max).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>I agree that the intuitive notion of information is derived from the Latin “in-formare” (Varela, 1979). But most of us do no longer use “force” and “mass” in the intuitive (Aristotelian) sense. </span><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black'>J</span><span style='color:black'> The proliferation of the meanings of information if confused with “meaningful information” is indicative for an “index sui et falsi”, in my opinion. The repetitive discussion lames the progression at this list. It is “like asking whether a glass is half empty or half full” (Hayles, 1990, p. 59). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>This act of forming forming an information process results in the construction of an observer that is the owner [holder] of information.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>The system of reference is then no longer the message, but the observer who provides meaning to the information (uncertainty). I agree that this is a selection process, but the variation first has to be specified independently (before it can be selected.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>And Lerner introduces the threshold between objective and subjective observes (page 27). This leads to a consideration selection and cooperation that includes entanglement.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>I don’t see a direct relation between information and entanglement. An observer can be entangled.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>Best, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>Loet</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>PS. Pedro: Let me assume that this is my second posting in the week which ends tonight. L.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m7584457439853745778m3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><br>4 Austin Dr. Prior Park St. James, Barbados BB23004<br>Tel: <a href="tel:%28246%29%20421-8855" target="_blank">246-421-8855</a><br>Cell: <a href="tel:%28246%29%20243-5938" target="_blank">246-243-5938</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-----------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Professor David (Dai) Griffiths<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Professor of Education<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>School of Education and Psychology<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>The University of Bolton<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Deane Road<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Bolton, BL3 5AB<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Office: T3 02<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="http://www.bolton.ac.uk/IEC" target="_blank">http://www.bolton.ac.uk/IEC</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>SKYPE: daigriffiths<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>UK Mobile <a href="tel:+44%207491%20151559" target="_blank">+44 (0)7491151559</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Spanish Mobile: <a href="tel:+34%20687%2095%2059%2012" target="_blank">+ 34 687955912</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Work: <a href="tel:+44%207826%20917705" target="_blank">+ 44 (0)7826917705</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>(Please don't leave voicemail)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>email: <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> <a href="mailto:d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> <a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________ Fis mailing list <a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-----------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Professor David (Dai) Griffiths<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Professor of Education<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>School of Education and Psychology<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>The University of Bolton<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Deane Road<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Bolton, BL3 5AB<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Office: T3 02<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="http://www.bolton.ac.uk/IEC" target="_blank">http://www.bolton.ac.uk/IEC</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>SKYPE: daigriffiths<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>UK Mobile <a href="tel:+44%207491%20151559" target="_blank">+44 (0)7491151559</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Spanish Mobile: <a href="tel:+34%20687%2095%2059%2012" target="_blank">+ 34 687955912</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Work: <a href="tel:+44%207826%20917705" target="_blank">+ 44 (0)7826917705</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>(Please don't leave voicemail)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>email: <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> <a href="mailto:d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'> <a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>