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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear Terrence and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>I agree that we should not be fundamentalistic about “information”. For example, one can also use “uncertainty” as an alternative word to Shannon-type “information”. One can also make distinctions other than semantic/syntactic/pragmatic, such as biological information, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Nevertheless, what makes this list to a common platform, in my opinion, is our interest in the differences and similarities in the background of these different notions of information. In my opinion, the status of Shannon’s mathematical theory of information is different from special theories of information (e.g., biological ones) since the formal theory enables us to translate between these latter theories. The translations are heuristically important: they enable us to import metaphors from other backgrounds (e.g., auto-catalysis).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>For example, one of us communicated with me why I was completely wrong, and made the argument with reference to Kullback-Leibler divergence between two probability distributions. Since we probably will not have “a general theory” of information, the apparatus in which information is formally and operationally defined—Bar-Hillel once called it “information calculus”—can carry this interdisciplinary function with precision and rigor. Otherwise, we can only be respectful of each other’s research traditions. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>I wish you all a splendid 2017,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Professor, University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>loet@leydesdorff.net </span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>; </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Associate Faculty, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>SPRU, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>University of Sussex; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Guest Professor </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Beijing;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Visiting Professor, </span><a name="_GoBack"></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, University of London; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Terrence W. DEACON<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> fis<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is life?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Against information fundamentalism<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Rather than fighting over THE definition of information, I suggest that we stand back from the polemics for a moment and recognize that the term is being used in often quite incompatible ways in different domains, and that there may be value in paying attention to the advantages and costs of each. To ignore these differences, to fail to explore the links and dependencies between them, and to be indifferent to the different use values gained or sacrificed by each, I believe that we end up undermining the very enterprise we claim to be promoting.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>We currently lack broadly accepted terms to unambiguously distinguish these divergent uses and, even worse, we lack a theoretical framework for understanding their relationships to one another.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>So provisionally I would argue that we at least need to distinguish three hierarchically related uses of the concept:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>1. Physical information: Information as intrinsically measurable medium properties with respect to their capacity to support 2 or 3 irrespective of any specific instantiation of 2 or 3.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>2. Referential information: information as a non-intrinsic relation to something other than medium properties (1) that a given medium can provide (i.e. reference or content) irrespective of any specific instantiation of 3.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>3. Normative information: Information as the use value provided by a given referential relation (2) with respect to an end-directed dynamic that is susceptible to contextual factors that are not directly accessible (i.e. functional value or significance).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Unfortunately, because of the history of using the same term in an unmodified way in each relevant domain irrespective of the others there are often pointless arguments of a purely definitional nature.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>In linguistic theory an analogous three-part hierarchic partitioning of theory IS widely accepted. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>1. syntax<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>2. semantics<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>3. pragmatics<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Thus by analogy some have proposed the distinction between<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>1. syntactic information (aka Shannon)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>2. semantic information (aka meaning)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>3. pragmatic information (aka useful information)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>This has also often been applied to the philosophy of information (e.g. see The Stanford Dictionary of Philosophy entry for ‘information’). Unfortunately, the language-centric framing of this distinction can be somewhat misleading. The metaphoric extension of the terms ‘syntax’ and ‘semantics’ to apply to iconic (e.g. pictorial) or indexical (e.g. correlational) forms of communication exerts a subtle procrustean influence that obscures their naturalistic and nondigital features. This language bias is also often introduced with the term ‘meaning’ because of its linguistic connotations (i.e. does a sneeze have a meaning? Not in any standard sense. But it provides information “about” the state of person who sneezed.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>So as a first rough terminological distinction I propose using<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>1. physical information (or perhaps information<sub>1</sub>)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>2. referential information (information<sub>2</sub>)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>3. normative information (information<sub>3</sub>)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>to avoid definitional equivocation and the loss of referential clarity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>I would argue that we use the term ‘information’ in a prescinded way in both 1 and 2. That is, considered from the perspective of a potential interpretation (3) we can bracket consideration of any particular interpretation to assess the possible relational properties that are available to provide reference (2); and we can bracket both 3 and 2 to only consider the medium/signal properties minimally available for 2 and 3 irrespective of using them for these purposes.*<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Although 2 and 3 are not quantifiable in the same sense that 1 is, neither are they unconstrained or merely subjective. The possible referential content of a given medium or sign vehicle is constrained by the physical properties of the medium and its relationship to its physical context. Normative information captures the way that referential content can be correct or incorrect, accurate or inaccurate, useful or useless, etc., depending on the requirements of the interpretive system and its relation to the context. In both cases there are specific unambiguously identifiable constraints on reference and normative value.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>There has been a prejudice in favor of 1 because of the (mistaken) view that 2 and three are in some deep sense nonphysical and subjective. Consistent with this view, there have been many efforts to find a way to reduce 2 and 3 to some expression of 1. Although it is often remarked that introducing non reduced concepts of referential content (2) and normative evaluation (3) into the theory of information risks introducing non quantifiable (and by assumption non scientific) attributes, I think that this is more a prejudice than a principle that has been rigorously demonstrated. Even if there is currently no widely accepted non reductionistic formalization of reference and significance within the information sciences this is not evidence that it cannot be achieved. One thing is clear, however, until we find a way to use the term ‘information’ in a way that does not privilege one of these uses over the others and unequivocally distinguishes each and their relationships to one another, the debates we engage in on this forum will remain interminable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>So I suggest that we commence a discussion of how best to accomplish this terminological brush-clearing before further debating the relevance of information to physics, logic, biology, or art. I apologize if this is already accepted as “solved” by some readers, and would be glad to receive and share your different taxonomies and learn of how they are justified.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>— Terry<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>* Stan Salthe might organize them in a subsumptive hierarchy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;min-height:14px'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>It's important that one should remain practical. Shannon's formulae are practical. The correspondence with certain tenets of cybernetics such as Ashby's Law, or Maturana's "Structural Coupling" presents Shannon as a window for exploring *relations* empirically. This I understand to be Bob Ulanowicz's focus too. I think Ashby's epistemology which accompanied his championing of Shannon (and which seems to me to be quite radical) is worth a much deeper exploration (it was eclipsed by second-order cybernetics in the early 70s). Klaus Krippendorff wrote an excellent paper about this here: <a href="http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1245&context=asc_papers" target="_blank">http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1245&context=asc_papers</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Information theory is counting - but it provides a way of measuring relations, which I think marks it out as distinct from other statistical techniques such as variance. It also provides the basis for questioning what we actually mean by counting in the first place: you might call it "critical counting". For example, Ashby makes the comment about "analogy" (a key concept if we are to say that one thing is the same class as another when we count them together)... (apologies because I can't find the reference to this right now, but will send if anyone is interested):<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>"The principle of analogy is founded upon the assumption that a degree of likeness between two objects in respect of their known qualities is some reason for expecting a degree of likeness between them in respect of their unknown qualities also, and that the probability with which unascertained similarities are to be expected depends upon the amount of likeness already known."<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Also, just to correct a possible misconception: I don't think counting leads to populism. Econometrics has led to populism. Some of the greatest economists of the 20th century saw the problem - this is why Keynes wrote a book on probability, and Hayek wrote extensively criticising mathematical modelling. In the end, I'm afraid, it's an American problem which goes back to McCarthy and the distrust of criticality in the social sciences in favour of positivist mathematical "objectivist" approaches. Those schools in the US which championed mathematical approaches (Chicago, etc) got all the funding, controlled the journals, whilst others were starved. The legacy from the 1950s is still with us: it's still very hard to get an economics paper published unless it's got crazy equations in it. In the end, it's just bad theory - and bad mathematics.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>We could well see a similar thing happen with climate science in the next four years.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Mark<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On 20 December 2016 at 19:55, Bob Logan <<a href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">logan@physics.utoronto.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Loet - thanks for the mention of our (Kauffman, Logan et al) definition our definition of information which is a qualitative description of information. As to whether one can measure information with our description, my response is no but I am not sure that one can measure information at all. What units would one use to measure information? <b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222'>E</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222;background:white'> = mc </span><sup><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222'>2 </span></sup>contains a lot of information but the amount of information depends on context. A McLuhan one-liner such as 'the medium is the message' also contains a lot of information even though it is only 5 words or 26 characters long. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Hopefully I have provided some information but how much information is impossible to measure.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Bob<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>______________________</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Robert K. Logan</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span></span><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Fellow University of St. Michael's College</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan" target="_blank">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-style-span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications" target="_blank">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt'><a href="https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/" target="_blank">https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Dec 20, 2016, at 3:26 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear colleagues,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>A distribution contains uncertainty that can be measured in terms of bits of information.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Alternatively: the expected information content<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><i>H<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></i>of a probability distribution<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><img border=0 width=46 height=27 id="m_5557051252754959792gmail-m_-3470337822677402956441C4DF2-0839-40CF-9BE6-FEF61D2D3BA8" src="cid:image001.png@01D25DB9.10A86510"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>is<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><img border=0 width=153 height=31 id="m_5557051252754959792gmail-m_-34703378226774029560FC17564-6D70-4E03-905E-E48BC03F54CB" src="cid:image002.png@01D25DB9.10A86510"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>H</span></i><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>is further defined as probabilistic entropy using Gibb’s formulation of the entropy<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><img border=0 width=90 height=27 id="m_5557051252754959792gmail-m_-34703378226774029561D1BFD38-35ED-4098-A615-87C6F60682D7" src="cid:image003.png@01D25DB9.10A86510"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>This definition of information is an operational definition. In my opinion, we do not need an essentialistic definition by answering the question of “what is information?” As the discussion on this list demonstrates, one does not easily agree on an essential answer; one can answer the question “how is information defined?” Information is not “something out there” which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Using essentialistic definitions, the discussion tends not to move forward. For example, Stuart Kauffman’s and Bob Logan’s (2007) definition of information “as natural selection assembling the very constraints on the release of energy that then constitutes work and the propagation of organization.” I asked several times what this means and how one can measure this information. Hitherto, I only obtained the answer that colleagues who disagree with me will be cited.<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A'>J</span><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Another answer was that “counting” may lead to populism.<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Professor, University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:purple'>loet@leydesdorff.net<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>;<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:purple'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Associate Faculty,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:purple'>SPRU,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>University of Sussex;<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Guest Professor<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:purple'>Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:purple'>ISTIC,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Beijing;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Visiting Professor,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><a name="m_5557051252754959792_m_-347033782267740"></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:purple'>Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>, University of London;<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:purple'>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Dick Stoute [<a href="mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com</span></a>]<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span>Monday, December 19, 2016 12:48 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>loet@leydesdorff.net</span></a><br><b>Cc:</b><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span>James Peters;<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>ulan@umces.edu</span></a>; Alex Hankey; FIS Webinar<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is life?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>List,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Please allow me to respond to Loet about the definition of information stated below. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I agree. I struggled with this definition for a long time before realising that Shannon was really discussing "amount of information" or the number of bits needed to convey a message. He was looking for a formula that would provide an accurate estimate of the number of bits needed to convey a message and realised that the amount of information (number of bits) needed to convey a message was dependent on the "amount" of uncertainty that had to be eliminated and so he equated these. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It makes sense to do this, but we must distinguish between "amount of information" and "information". For example, we can measure amount of water in liters, but this does not tell us what water is and likewise the measure we use for "amount of information" does not tell us what information is. We can, for example equate the amount of water needed to fill a container with the volume of the container, but we should not think that water is therefore identical to an empty volume. Similarly we should not think that information is identical to uncertainty.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>By equating the number of bits needed to convey a message with the "amount of uncertainty" that has to be eliminated Shannon, in effect, equated opposites so that he could get an estimate of the number of bits needed to eliminate the uncertainty. We should not therefore consider that this equation establishes what information is. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class="m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Dick</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On 18 December 2016 at 15:05, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>loet@leydesdorff.net</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>Dear James and colleagues,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>Weaver (1949) made two major remarks about his coauthor (Shannon)'s contribution:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>2. "In particular, information must not be confused with meaning." (p. 8)<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>The definition of information as relevant for a system of reference confuses information with "meaningful information" and thus sacrifices the surplus value of Shannon's counter-intuitive definition.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>information observer<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>that integrates interactive processes such as<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>physical interactions such photons stimulating the retina of the eye, human-machine interactions (this is the level that Shannon lives on), biological interaction such body temperature relative to touch ice or heat source, social interaction such as this forum started by Pedro, economic interaction such as the stock market, ... [Lerner, page 1].<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>We are in need of a theory of meaning. Otherwise, one cannot measure meaningful information. In a previous series of communications we discussed redundancy from this perspective.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>Lerner introduces mathematical expectation E[Sap] (difference between of a priory entropy [sic] and a posteriori entropy), which is distinguished from the notion of relative information Iap (Learner, page 7).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=140 height=36 id="m_5557051252754959792gmail-m_-3470337822677402956A9F2940A-D3C6-420C-812B-0677A2C75A63" src="cid:image004.png@01D25DB9.10A86510"></span>) expresses in bits of information the information generated when the a priori distribution<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=46 height=27 id="m_5557051252754959792gmail-m_-3470337822677402956889C2055-D82E-4E62-88FE-CB1C16FBD1F4" src="cid:image005.png@01D25DB9.10A86510"></span>is turned into the a posteriori one<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=50 height=27 id="m_5557051252754959792gmail-m_-3470337822677402956A015F5AE-316B-40AC-8F18-CDF4EC18885A" src="cid:image006.png@01D25DB9.10A86510"></span>. This follows within the Shannon framework without needing an observer. I use this equation, for example, in my 1995-book<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><i>The Challenge of Scientometrics</i><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span>(Chapters 8 and 9), with a reference to Theil (1972). The relative information is defined as the<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><i>H</i>/<i>H</i>(max).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>I agree that the intuitive notion of information is derived from the Latin “in-formare” (Varela, 1979). But most of us do no longer use “force” and “mass” in the intuitive (Aristotelian) sense.<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><span style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span><span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span>The proliferation of the meanings of information if confused with “meaningful information” is indicative for an “index sui et falsi”, in my opinion. The repetitive discussion lames the progression at this list. It is “like asking whether a glass is half empty or half full” (Hayles, 1990, p. 59).<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>This act of forming forming an information process results in the construction of an observer that is the owner [holder] of information.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>The system of reference is then no longer the message, but the observer who provides meaning to the information (uncertainty). I agree that this is a selection process, but the variation first has to be specified independently (before it can be selected.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.5in'>And Lerner introduces the threshold between objective and subjective observes (page 27). This leads to a consideration selection and cooperation that includes entanglement.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>I don’t see a direct relation between information and entanglement. An observer can be entangled.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>Best,<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>Loet<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'>PS. Pedro: Let me assume that this is my second posting in the week which ends tonight. L.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956m6893889769850668776msoplaintext style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>--<span class=m5557051252754959792gmail-m-3470337822677402956apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><br>4 Austin Dr. Prior Park St. James, Barbados BB23004<br>Tel: <a href="tel:(246)%20421-8855" target="_blank">246-421-8855</a><br>Cell: <a href="tel:(246)%20243-5938" target="_blank">246-243-5938</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br></span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:purple'>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br></span><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:purple'>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>Institute of Learning and Teaching<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Faculty of Health and Life Sciences<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>University of Liverpool<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Phone: 07786 064505<br>Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>Blog: <a href="http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Professor Terrence W. 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