<div dir="ltr">
<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1">Dai --</span></p><p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1">{phenomenon 1}</span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">{phenomenon 2} --> {Phenomena 1 & 2} ---> {phenomena 1.2,3}<br><span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">{phenomenon 3}<br><span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">The process from left to right is generalization.<br><span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">‘Information’ IS a generalization.</p><p class="gmail-p2">generalities form the substance of philosophy. Info happens to a case</p><p class="gmail-p2"> of generalization which can be mathematized, which in turn allows</p><p class="gmail-p2"> it to be generalized even more.</p>
<p class="gmail-p2">So, what’s the problem?<br><span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">STAN<br><span class="gmail-s1"></span></p></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Dai Griffiths <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>> Information is not “something out there” which “exists”
otherwise than as our construct.</p>
<p>I agree with this. And I wonder to what extent our problems in
discussing information come from our desire to shoe-horn many
different phenomena into the same construct. It would be possible
to disaggregate the construct. It be possible to discuss the
topics which we address on this list without using the word
'information'. We could discuss redundancy, variety, constraint,
meaning, structural coupling, coordination, expectation, language,
etc.</p>
<p>In what ways would our explanations be weakened?<br>
</p>
<p>In what ways might we gain in clarity?
</p>
<p>If we were to go down this road, we would face the danger that
our discussions might become (even more) remote from everyday
human experience. But many scientific discussions are remote from
everyday human experience.<br>
</p>
<p>Dai<br>
</p>
<div class="m_3098479109588466821moz-cite-prefix">On 20/12/16 08:26, Loet Leydesdorff
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_3098479109588466821WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Dear
colleagues, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">A
distribution contains uncertainty that can be measured in
terms of bits of information.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Alternatively:
the expected information content <i>H </i>of a probability
distribution </span><span><img id="m_3098479109588466821_x0000_i1025" src="cid:part1.72562E78.5FDB244D@gmail.com" height="27" width="46"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">is
</span><span><img id="m_3098479109588466821_x0000_i1025" src="cid:part2.590C9115.F8FA7624@gmail.com" height="31" width="153"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">H</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">
is further defined as probabilistic entropy using Gibb’s
formulation of the entropy </span><span><img id="m_3098479109588466821_x0000_i1025" src="cid:part3.880C0C61.BF958639@gmail.com" height="27" width="90"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">This
definition of information is an operational definition. In
my opinion, we do not need an essentialistic definition by
answering the question of “what is information?” As the
discussion on this list demonstrates, one does not easily
agree on an essential answer; one can answer the question
“how is information defined?” Information is not “something
out there” which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Using
essentialistic definitions, the discussion tends not to move
forward. For example, Stuart Kauffman’s and Bob Logan’s
(2007) definition of information “as natural selection
assembling the very constraints on the release of energy
that then constitutes work and the propagation of
organization.” I asked several times what this means and how
one can measure this information. Hitherto, I only obtained
the answer that colleagues who disagree with me will be
cited. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546a">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">
Another answer was that “counting” may lead to populism. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546a">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Loet<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
<hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Loet
Leydesdorff </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Professor,
University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></a><a class="m_3098479109588466821moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">;
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></a><a class="m_3098479109588466821moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Associate
Faculty, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU, </span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">University
of Sussex; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Guest
Professor </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Beijing;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Visiting
Professor, </span><a name="m_3098479109588466821__GoBack"></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">,
University of London; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"></span></a><a class="m_3098479109588466821moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/<wbr>citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&<wbr>hl=en</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Dick Stoute [<a class="m_3098479109588466821moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 19, 2016 12:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="m_3098479109588466821moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> James Peters; <a class="m_3098479109588466821moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu" target="_blank">ulan@umces.edu</a>; Alex Hankey; FIS
Webinar<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is
life?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">List,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Please allow
me to respond to Loet about the definition of information
stated below. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">1.
the definition of information as uncertainty is
counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I
agree. I struggled with this definition for a long time
before realising that Shannon was really discussing
"amount of information" or the number of bits needed to
convey a message. He was looking for a formula that
would provide an accurate estimate of the number of bits
needed to convey a message and realised that the amount
of information (number of bits) needed to convey a
message was dependent on the "amount" of uncertainty
that had to be eliminated and so he equated these. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">It
makes sense to do this, but we must distinguish between
"amount of information" and "information". For example,
we can measure amount of water in liters, but this does
not tell us what water is and likewise the measure we
use for "amount of information" does not tell us what
information is. We can, for example equate the amount of
water needed to fill a container with the volume of the
container, but we should not think that water is
therefore identical to an empty volume. Similarly we
should not think that information is identical to
uncertainty.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">By
equating the number of bits needed to convey a message
with the "amount of uncertainty" that has to be
eliminated Shannon, in effect, equated opposites so that
he could get an estimate of the number of bits needed to
eliminate the uncertainty. We should not therefore
consider that this equation establishes what information
is. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On 18 December
2016 at 15:05, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_3098479109588466821moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in">Dear James and colleagues, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in">Weaver (1949) made two major
remarks about his coauthor (Shannon)'s contribution:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in">1. the definition of
information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive
("bizarre"); (p. 27)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in">2. "In particular,
information must not be confused with meaning." (p. 8)
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in">The definition of information
as relevant for a system of reference confuses
information with "meaningful information" and thus
sacrifices the surplus value of Shannon's
counter-intuitive definition.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:1.0in">information observer<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:1.0in">that integrates interactive
processes such as <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:1.0in">physical interactions such
photons stimulating the retina of the eye,
human-machine interactions (this is the level that
Shannon lives on), biological interaction such body
temperature relative to touch ice or heat source,
social interaction such as this forum started by
Pedro, economic interaction such as the stock market,
... [Lerner, page 1].<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black">We
are in need of a theory of meaning. Otherwise, one
cannot measure meaningful information. In a previous
series of communications we discussed redundancy
from this perspective.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:1.0in">Lerner introduces
mathematical expectation E[Sap] (difference between of
a priory entropy [sic] and a posteriori entropy),
which is distinguished from the notion of relative
information Iap (Learner, page 7).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><img id="m_3098479109588466821m_6893889769850668776_x005f_x0000_i1025" src="cid:part13.E6FCECCB.08833AEC@gmail.com" border="0" height="36" width="140"></span><span style="color:black">) expresses in bits of
information the information generated when the a
priori distribution </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><img id="m_3098479109588466821_x0000_i1026" src="cid:part14.D382C500.6E432DD1@gmail.com" border="0" height="27" width="46"></span><span style="color:black">is turned into the a posteriori
one </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><img id="m_3098479109588466821_x0000_i1027" src="cid:part15.BB1F184E.7197AF87@gmail.com" border="0" height="27" width="50"></span><span style="color:black">. This follows within the
Shannon framework without needing an observer. I use
this equation, for example, in my 1995-book <i>The
Challenge of Scientometrics</i> (Chapters 8 and
9), with a reference to Theil (1972). The relative
information is defined as the <i>H</i>/<i>H</i>(max).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black">I
agree that the intuitive notion of information is
derived from the Latin “in-formare” (Varela, 1979).
But most of us do no longer use “force” and “mass”
in the intuitive (Aristotelian) sense. </span><span style="font-family:Wingdings;color:black">J</span><span style="color:black"> The proliferation of the
meanings of information if confused with “meaningful
information” is indicative for an “index sui et
falsi”, in my opinion. The repetitive discussion
lames the progression at this list. It is “like
asking whether a glass is half empty or half full”
(Hayles, 1990, p. 59). </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:1.0in">This act of forming forming
an information process results in the construction of
an observer that is the owner [holder] of information.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in">The system of reference is
then no longer the message, but the observer who
provides meaning to the information (uncertainty). I
agree that this is a selection process, but the
variation first has to be specified independently
(before it can be selected.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:1.0in">And Lerner introduces the
threshold between objective and subjective observes
(page 27). This leads to a consideration selection
and cooperation that includes entanglement.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black">I
don’t see a direct relation between information and
entanglement. An observer can be entangled.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black">Best,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black">Loet</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:black">PS.
Pedro: Let me assume that this is my second posting
in the week which ends tonight. L.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_3098479109588466821m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-left:.5in"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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