<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Loet - thanks for the mention of our (Kauffman, Logan et al) definition our definition of information which is a qualitative description of information. As to whether one can measure information with our description, my response is no but I am not sure that one can measure information at all. What units would one use to measure information? <b style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class="">E</b><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> = mc </span><sup style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif;" class="">2 </sup>contains a lot of information but the amount of information depends on context. A McLuhan one-liner such as 'the medium is the message' also contains a lot of information even though it is only 5 words or 26 characters long. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hopefully I have provided some information but how much information is impossible to measure.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Bob</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br class=""></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">______________________</span></div></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12px;"><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br class=""></span></div>Robert K. Logan</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Fellow University of St. Michael's College</span></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;">Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; widows: 2;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan" class="">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a></span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications" class="">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><a href="https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/" class="">https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/people/homepages/logan/</a></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><br class=""></span><div style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div><div class="">On Dec 20, 2016, at 3:26 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" class="">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Dear colleagues,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">A distribution contains uncertainty that can be measured in terms of bits of information.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Alternatively: the expected information content<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">H<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>of a probability distribution<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; position: relative; top: 2.5pt;" class=""><img class="" apple-inline="yes" id="441C4DF2-0839-40CF-9BE6-FEF61D2D3BA8" height="27" width="46" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:image008.png@01D25AA3.2973CDF0"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; position: relative; top: 3pt;" class=""><img class="" apple-inline="yes" id="0FC17564-6D70-4E03-905E-E48BC03F54CB" height="31" width="153" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:image009.png@01D25AA3.2973CDF0"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">H</span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is further defined as probabilistic entropy using Gibb’s formulation of the entropy<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; position: relative; top: 2.5pt;" class=""><img class="" apple-inline="yes" id="1D1BFD38-35ED-4098-A615-87C6F60682D7" height="27" width="90" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:image011.png@01D25AA3.2973CDF0"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">This definition of information is an operational definition. In my opinion, we do not need an essentialistic definition by answering the question of “what is information?” As the discussion on this list demonstrates, one does not easily agree on an essential answer; one can answer the question “how is information defined?” Information is not “something out there” which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Using essentialistic definitions, the discussion tends not to move forward. For example, Stuart Kauffman’s and Bob Logan’s (2007) definition of information “as natural selection assembling the very constraints on the release of energy that then constitutes work and the propagation of organization.” I asked several times what this means and how one can measure this information. Hitherto, I only obtained the answer that colleagues who disagree with me will be cited.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">J</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Another answer was that “counting” may lead to populism.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">J</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class="">Loet<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><hr size="3" width="100%" align="center" class=""></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Loet Leydesdorff<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Professor, University of Amsterdam<br class="">Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">loet@leydesdorff.net<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></a></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Associate Faculty,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">SPRU,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">University of Sussex;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Guest Professor<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">ISTIC,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Beijing;<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Visiting Professor,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a name="_GoBack" class=""></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">, University of London;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class="">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dick Stoute [<a href="mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:dick.stoute@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, December 19, 2016 12:48 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">loet@leydesdorff.net</a><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>James Peters;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">ulan@umces.edu</a>; Alex Hankey; FIS Webinar<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is life?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">List,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Please allow me to respond to Loet about the definition of information stated below. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I agree. I struggled with this definition for a long time before realising that Shannon was really discussing "amount of information" or the number of bits needed to convey a message. He was looking for a formula that would provide an accurate estimate of the number of bits needed to convey a message and realised that the amount of information (number of bits) needed to convey a message was dependent on the "amount" of uncertainty that had to be eliminated and so he equated these. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It makes sense to do this, but we must distinguish between "amount of information" and "information". For example, we can measure amount of water in liters, but this does not tell us what water is and likewise the measure we use for "amount of information" does not tell us what information is. We can, for example equate the amount of water needed to fill a container with the volume of the container, but we should not think that water is therefore identical to an empty volume. Similarly we should not think that information is identical to uncertainty.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">By equating the number of bits needed to convey a message with the "amount of uncertainty" that has to be eliminated Shannon, in effect, equated opposites so that he could get an estimate of the number of bits needed to eliminate the uncertainty. We should not therefore consider that this equation establishes what information is. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><p class="gmail-m-7620727072806746849gmail-m-3869641630998968668msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dick<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On 18 December 2016 at 15:05, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear James and colleagues,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Weaver (1949) made two major remarks about his coauthor (Shannon)'s contribution:<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">1. the definition of information as uncertainty is counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">2. "In particular, information must not be confused with meaning." (p. 8)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The definition of information as relevant for a system of reference confuses information with "meaningful information" and thus sacrifices the surplus value of Shannon's counter-intuitive definition.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 1in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">information observer<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 1in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">that integrates interactive processes such as<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 1in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">physical interactions such photons stimulating the retina of the eye, human-machine interactions (this is the level that Shannon lives on), biological interaction such body temperature relative to touch ice or heat source, social interaction such as this forum started by Pedro, economic interaction such as the stock market, ... [Lerner, page 1].<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class="">We are in need of a theory of meaning. Otherwise, one cannot measure meaningful information. In a previous series of communications we discussed redundancy from this perspective.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 1in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Lerner introduces mathematical expectation E[Sap] (difference between of a priory entropy [sic] and a posteriori entropy), which is distinguished from the notion of relative information Iap (Learner, page 7).<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><img class="" apple-inline="yes" id="A9F2940A-D3C6-420C-812B-0677A2C75A63" height="36" width="140" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:image005.png@01D25A9F.FD5742E0"></span><span style="" class="">) expresses in bits of information the information generated when the a priori distribution<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><img class="" apple-inline="yes" id="889C2055-D82E-4E62-88FE-CB1C16FBD1F4" height="27" width="46" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:image006.png@01D25A9F.FD5742E0"></span><span style="" class="">is turned into the a posteriori one<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><img class="" apple-inline="yes" id="A015F5AE-316B-40AC-8F18-CDF4EC18885A" height="27" width="50" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:image007.png@01D25A9F.FD5742E0"></span><span style="" class="">. This follows within the Shannon framework without needing an observer. I use this equation, for example, in my 1995-book<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">The Challenge of Scientometrics</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Chapters 8 and 9), with a reference to Theil (1972). The relative information is defined as the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">H</i>/<i class="">H</i>(max).</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class="">I agree that the intuitive notion of information is derived from the Latin “in-formare” (Varela, 1979). But most of us do no longer use “force” and “mass” in the intuitive (Aristotelian) sense.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">J</span><span style="" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The proliferation of the meanings of information if confused with “meaningful information” is indicative for an “index sui et falsi”, in my opinion. The repetitive discussion lames the progression at this list. It is “like asking whether a glass is half empty or half full” (Hayles, 1990, p. 59).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 1in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">This act of forming forming an information process results in the construction of an observer that is the owner [holder] of information.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The system of reference is then no longer the message, but the observer who provides meaning to the information (uncertainty). I agree that this is a selection process, but the variation first has to be specified independently (before it can be selected.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 1in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">And Lerner introduces the threshold between objective and subjective observes (page 27). This leads to a consideration selection and cooperation that includes entanglement.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class="">I don’t see a direct relation between information and entanglement. An observer can be entangled.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class="">Best,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class="">Loet</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="" class="">PS. Pedro: Let me assume that this is my second posting in the week which ends tonight. L.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="m6893889769850668776msoplaintext" style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class="">4 Austin Dr. Prior Park St. James, Barbados BB23004<br class="">Tel: 246-421-8855<br class="">Cell: 246-243-5938<o:p class=""></o:p></p></div></div></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Fis mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></div><br class=""></div></body></html>