<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div><div style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Thank you Bob!<br><br>The medium is a very restricted form of communication on the internet, of course...<br><br>Are our circular deliberations about information victims of the so-called "information technology" which enables them? Is this a variety of Wittgenstein's realisation that the problems of philosophy were problems of language? Perhaps we cannot see the constraints that communications technology itself has on our discourse. How might we try to see them? <br><br>Maybe this goes some way towards accounting for the strange political situation we find ourselves in at the moment!<br><br>Best wishes,<br><br>Mark</div></div><div dir="ltr"><hr><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">From: </span><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca">Bob Logan</a></span><br><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">Sent: </span><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">18/12/2016 15:14</span><br><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">To: </span><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">Loet Leydesdorff</a>; <a href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu">Robert Ulanowicz</a>; <a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com">Alex Hankey</a></span><br><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">Cc: </span><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a></span><br><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Re: [Fis] Fwd: What is life?</span><br><br></div>Hello Loet, Bob U, Alex et alia - I agree with Bob U when he wrote "<font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">The problem is that information is not an absolute.” As I have stated </span></font><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">before </span><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 15px;">on this list information is relative and depends on the context.</span></font><div><br></div><div>And I agree with Loet when he wrote, "<font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Different systems of reference, of course, can attribute different meanings to the same information.</span><span style="font-size: 15px;">”</span></font><br><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> </span> In fact McLuhan expressed Loet's thought long ago with the one-liner: "The user is the content” Applying this idea to Shannon’s original paper might explain why we have so many definitions of information as each reader of his original paper has their own interpretation of Shannon because as McLuhan said "the user is the content”. <div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>For this user, Shannon information theory should be called Shannon signal theory as Shannon himself said his theory was not concerned with meaning only the accuracy of sending a signal from point A to point B. What does information without meaning mean anyway? </div><div><br></div><div>I enjoy these conversations about the meaning of information and even wrote a book on the subject entitled What Is Information? (Available for free at <a href="http://demopublishing.com">demopublishing.com</a>) but I get the feeling we are like the dog chasing its own tail. I agreed with Bob U’s point <span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">that information is not an absolute </span>and then I agreed with Loet’s disagreement with Bob U’s point. Talk about a dog chasing its tail. </div><div><br></div><div>And if this is not enough consider another McLuhan one-liner: "The medium is the message” in which he suggests that there is additional information in the medium that carries the signals from point A to point B independent of those signals. </div><div><br></div><div>cheers - Bob L</div><div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: normal; border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; 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font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">______________________</span></div></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br></span></div>Robert K. Logan</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font: 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font: 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Fellow University of St. Michael's College</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font: 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font: 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a></span><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan">www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan</a></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span><br><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; -ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="text-indent: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br></div></span></div></div></div></span></div></span></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br><div><div>On Dec 18, 2016, at 2:16 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class="WordSection1" style="text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">The problem is that information is not an absolute. The same code when measured against different references (English vs. Spanish in this case) will yield different measures. It's the obverse of the Third Law of Thermodynamics. See <<a style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" href="http://people.clas.ufl.edu/ulan/files/FISPAP.pdf"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;">http://people.clas.ufl.edu/ulan/files/FISPAP.pdf</span></a>><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Dear Bob,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span>It seems to me that you confuse information with what information means for a system of reference. Different systems of reference, of course, can attribute different meanings to the same information.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span>@Alex: this confusion is unfortunately pervasive. Unlike Shannon-type information, “information” is often defined (following Bateson and McKay) as “a difference which makes a difference”, without articulation that the second difference presumes the specification of a system of reference.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span>A series of differences of the first type can be considered as a probability distribution that contains uncertainty. “A difference which makes a difference”, however, can be considered as “meaningful information”. In my opinion, this “meaningful information” should not be equated with information because one then uses the same word for two different things and thus generates confusion.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div>[The entire original message is not included.]</div></body></html>