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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Shannon declared in his original book that constraints are information. I don’t get the distinction you are trying to make. Also, Shannon
information applies to continuous systems. If they have a form (are constrained), then they have finite information. Infinite information applies only if there are no constraints. I don’t see how that could be true in a world that has regularities.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">John Collier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D">Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D"><a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0D0D0D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Logan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 11 December 2016 10:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> tozziarturo@libero.it<br>
<b>Cc:</b> fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] A provocative issue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bravo Arturo - I totally agree - in a paper I co-authored with Stuart Kauffman and others we talked abut the relativity of <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">information and the fact that information is not an absolute. Here is the abstract of the paper and an excerpt from the paper that discusses the relativity of information. The
full papers available at: <a href="https://www.academia.edu/783503/Propagating_organization_an_enquiry">https://www.academia.edu/783503/Propagating_organization_an_enquiry</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Best wishes - Bob Logan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="body"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Kauffman, Stuart, Robert K. Logan, Robert Este, Randy Goebel, David Hobill and Ilya Smulevich. 2007. Propagating Organization: An Inquiry. Biology and Philosophy 23: 27-45.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="body" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<b>Propagating Organization: An Enquiry - </b>Stuart Kauffman, Robert K. Logan, Robert Este, Randy Goebel, David Hobill and lIlya Shmulevich</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Institute for Systems Biology, Seattle Washington</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <b><span style="color:black">Abstract: </span></b></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Our aim in this article is to attempt to discuss propagating organization of process, a poorly
articulated union of matter, energy, work, constraints and that vexed concept, “information”, which unite in far from equilibrium living physical systems. Our hope is to stimulate discussions by philosophers of biology and biologists to further clarify the
concepts we discuss here. We place our discussion in the broad context of a “general biology”, properties that might well be found in life anywhere in the cosmos, freed from the specific examples of terrestrial life after 3.8 billion years of evolution. By
placing the discussion in this wider, if still hypothetical, context, we also try to place in context some of the extant discussion of information as intimately related to DNA, RNA and protein transcription and translation processes. While characteristic of
current terrestrial life, there are no compelling grounds to suppose the same mechanisms would be involved in any life form able to evolve by heritable variation and natural selection. In turn, this allows us to discuss at least briefly, the focus of much
of the philosophy of biology on population genetics, which, of course, assumes DNA, RNA, proteins, and other features of terrestrial life. Presumably, evolution by natural selection – and perhaps self-organization - could occur on many worlds via different
causal mechanisms.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Here we seek a non-reductionist explanation for the synthesis, accumulation, and propagation of information, work, and constraint, which we hope will provide some insight into both the biotic and abiotic
universe, in terms of both molecular self reproduction and the basic work energy cycle where work is the constrained release of energy into a few degrees of freedom. The typical requirement for work itself is to construct those very constraints on the release
of energy that then constitute further work. Information creation, we argue, arises in two ways: first information as natural selection assembling the very constraints on the release of energy that then constitutes work and the propagation of organization.
Second, information in a more extended sense is “semiotic”, that is <i>about</i> the world or internal state of the organism and requires appropriate response. The idea is to combine ideas from biology, physics, and computer science, to formulate explanatory
hypotheses on how information can be captured and rendered in the expected physical manifestation, which can then participate in the propagation of the organization of process in the expected biological work cycles to create the diversity in our observable
biosphere.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Our conclusions, to date, of this enquiry suggest a foundation which views information as the construction of constraints, which, in their physical manifestation, partially underlie the processes of
evolution to dynamically determine the fitness of organisms within the context of a biotic universe.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Section 4. The Relativity of Information</span></b><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">In Sections 2 we have argued that the Shannon conception
of information are not directly suited to describe the information of autonomous agents that propagate their organization. In Section 3 we have defined a new form of information, instructional or biotic information as the constraints that direct the flow of
free energy to do work.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The reader may legitimately ask the question “isn’t information just information?”, i.e., an invariant like the speed
of light. Our response to this question is <u>no</u>, and to then clarify what seems arbitrary about the definition of information. Instructional or biotic information is a useful definition for biotic systems just as Shannon information was useful for telecommunication
channel engineering, and Kolmogorov (Shiryayev 1993) information was useful for the study of information compression with respect to Turing machines.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The definition of information is relative and depends on the context in which it is to be considered. There appears to
be no such thing as absolute information that is an invariant that applies to all circumstances. Just as Shannon defined information in such a way as to understand the engineering of telecommunication channels, our definition of instructional or biotic information
best describes the interaction and evolution of biological systems and the propagation of organization. Information is a tool and as such it comes in different forms. We therefore would like to suggest that information is not an invariant but rather a quantity
that is relative to the environment in which it operates. It is also the case that the information in a system or structure is not an intrinsic property of that system or structure; rather it is sensitive to history and environment. To drive home this point
we will now examine the historic context in which Shannon (1948) information emerged.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Before delving into the origin of Shannon information we will first examine the relationship of information and materiality.
Information is about material things and furthermore is instantiated in material things but is not material itself. Information is an abstraction we use to describe the behavior of material things and often is thought as something that controls, in the cybernetic
sense, material things. So what do we mean when we say the constraints are information and information is constraints as we did in Section 3.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">“The constraints are information” is a way to describe the limits on the behavior of an autonomous agent who acts on its
own behalf but is nevertheless constrained by the internal logic that allows it to propagate its organization. This is consistent with Hayle’s (1999, p. 72) description of the way information is regarded by information science: “It constructs information as
the site of mastery and control over the material world.” She claims, and we concur, that information science treats information as separate from the material base in which it is instantiated. This suggests that there is nothing intrinsic about information
but rather it is merely a description of or a metaphor for the complex patterns of behavior of material things. In fact, the key is to what degree information is a completely vivid description of the objects in question.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">This understanding of the nature of information arises from Shannon’s (1948) original formulation of information, dating
back to his original paper:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The fundamental problem of communication is that of reproducing at one point either exactly or approximately a message selected at another point. Frequently the messages have meaning;
that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with certain physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem. The significant aspect is that the actual message is one selected
from a set of possible messages. The system must be designed to operate for each possible selection, not just the one that will actually be chosen since this is unknown at the time of design. If the number of messages in the set is finite then this number
or any monotonic function of this number can be regarded as a measure of the information produced when one message is chosen from the set, all choices being equally likely.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">A number of problems for biology emerge from this view
of information. The first is that the number of possible messages is not finite because we are not able to prestate all possible preadaptations from which a particular message can be selected and therefore the Shannon measure breaks down. Another problem is
that for Shannon the semantics or meaning of the message does not matter, whereas in biology the opposite is true. Biotic agents have purpose and hence meaning.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The third problem is that Shannon information is defined independent of the medium of its instantiation. This independence
of the medium is at the heart of a strong AI approach in which it is claimed that human intelligence does not require a wet computer, the brain, to operate but can be instantiated onto a silicon-based computer. In the biosphere, however, one cannot separate
the information from the material in which it is instantiated. The DNA is not a sign for something else it is the actual thing in itself, which regulates other genes, generates messenger RNA, which in turn control the production of proteins. Information on
a computer or a telecommunication device can slide from one computer or device to another and then via a printer to paper and not really change, McLuhan’s “the medium is the message” aside. This is not true of living things. The same genotype does not always
produce the same phenotype.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">According to the Shannon definition of information, a structured set of numbers like the set of even numbers has less
information than a set of random numbers because one can predict the sequence of even numbers. By this argument, a random soup of organic chemicals has more information that a structured biotic agent. The biotic agent has more meaning than the soup, however.
The living organism with more structure and more organization has less Shannon information. This is counterintuitive to a biologist’s understanding of a living organism. We therefore conclude that the use of Shannon information to describe a biotic system
would not be valid. Shannon information for a biotic system is simply a category error.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">A living organism has meaning because it is an autonomous agent acting on its own behalf. A random soup of organic chemicals
has no meaning and no organization. We may therefore conclude that a central feature of life is organization—organization that propagates.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">______________________</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Robert K. Logan</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Fellow University of St. Michael's College</span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan">http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan">www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan</a></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications">www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications</a></span></span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Dec 11, 2016, at 10:57 AM, <a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">
tozziarturo@libero.it</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">Dear FISers, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">I know that some of you are going to kill me, but there’s something that I must confess.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">I notice, from the nice issued raised by Francesco Rizzo, Joseph Brenner, John Collier, that the main concerns are always energetic/informational arguments and accounts.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">Indeed, the current tenets state that all is information, information being a real quantity that can be measured through informational entropies.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">But… I ask to myself, is such a tenet true?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">When I cook the pasta, I realize that, by my point of view, the cooked pasta encompasses more information than the not-cooked one, because it acquires the role of something that I can eat in order to increase my possibility
to preserve myself in the hostile environment that wants to destroy me. However, by the point of view of the bug who eats the non-cooked pasta, my cooked pasta displays less information for sure. Therefore, information is a very subjective measure that,
apart from its relationship with the observer, does not mean very much… Who can state that an event or a fact displays more information than another one?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">And, please, do not counteract that information is a quantifiable, objective reality, because it can be measured through informational entropy… Informational entropy, in its original Shannon’s formulation, stands
for an ergodic process (page 8 of the original 1948 Shannon’s seminal paper), i.e.: every sequence produced by the processes is the same in statistical properties, or, in other words, a traveling particle always crosses all the points of its phase space. However,
in physics and biology, the facts and events are never ergodic. Statistical homogeneity is just a fiction, if we evaluate the world around us and our brain/mind.
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">Therefore, the role of information could not be as fundamental as currently believed. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">P.S.: topology analyzes information by another point of view, but it’s an issue for the next time, I think…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New"">Arturo Tozzi</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Courier New"">AA Professor Physics, University North Texas</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New"">Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New"">Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;color:#05447E">http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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