<div dir="ltr">Folks -- On a source of the complexity of the neural system I think it worthwhile to dwell for a moment anyway on the phenomenon of the 'neural crest' in the development of vertebrate embryos. Just take peak at the beginning of Wiki's "Neural Crest".<div><br></div><div>STAN</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Asunto:
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<td>[Fis] NEW DISCUSSION SESSION--TOPOLOGICAL BRAIN</td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Fecha: </th>
<td>Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:46:32 +0100</td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">De: </th>
<td>Karl Javorszky <a class="m_7021151612199246645moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank"><karl.javorszky@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Responder
a: </th>
<td><a class="m_7021151612199246645moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Para: </th>
<td>fis <a class="m_7021151612199246645moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">CC: </th>
<td>Pedro C. Marijuan <a class="m_7021151612199246645moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank"><pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es></a>,
<a class="m_7021151612199246645moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a></td>
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<br>
<br>
<p dir="ltr">Topology</p>
<p dir="ltr">The session so far has raised the points:
meta-communication, subject-matter, order, spaces.</p>
<p dir="ltr">a.) Meta-communication</p>
<p dir="ltr">Gordana’s summary explicates the need to have a
system of references that FIS can use to discuss whatever it
wishes to discuss, be it the equivalence between energy and
information or the concept of space in the human brain. Whatever
the personal background, interests or intellectual creations of
the members of FIS, we each have been taught addition,
multiplication, division and the like. We also know how to read
a map and remember well where we had put a thing as we are going
to retrieve it. When discussing the intricate, philosophical
points which are common to all formulations of this session, it
may be helpful to use such words and procedures that are
well-known to each one of us, while describing what we do while
we use topology.</p>
<p dir="ltr">b.) Subject-matter</p>
<p dir="ltr">Topology is managed by much older structures of the
central nervous system than those that manage speech, counting,
abstract ideas. Animals and small children remember their way to
food and other attractions. Children discover and use topology
far before they can count. Topology is a primitive ancestor to
mathematics; its ideas and methods are archaic and may appear as
lacking in refinement and intelligence.</p>
<p dir="ltr">c.) Order</p>
<p dir="ltr">There is no need to discuss whether Nature is
well-ordered or not. Our brain is surely extremely well ordered,
otherwise we had seizures, tics, disintegrative features. In
discussing topology we can make use of the condition that
everything we investigate is extremely well ordered. We may not
be able to understand Nature, but we may get an idea about how
our brain functions, in its capacity as an extremely well
ordered system. We can make a half-step towards modelling
artificial intelligence by understanding at first, how
artificial instincts, and their conflicts, can be modelled.
Animals apparently utilise a different layer of reality of the
world while building up their orientation in it to that which
humans perceive as important. The path of understanding how
primitive instincts work begins with a half-step of dumbing
down. It is no more interesting, how many they are, now we only
look at where it is relative to how it appears, compared with
the others.</p>
<p dir="ltr">d.) Spaces</p>
<p dir="ltr">Out of sequences, planes naturally evolve. Whether
out of the planes spaces can be constructed, depends on the
kinds of planes and of common axes. Now the natural numbers come
in handy, as we can demonstrate to each other on natural
numbers, how in a well-ordered collection the actual mechanism
of place changes creates by itself two rectangular, Euclidean,
spaces. These can be merged into one common space, but in that,
there are four variants of every certainty coming from the
position within the sequence. Furthermore, all these spaces are
transcended by two planes. The discussion about an oriented
entity in a space of n dimensions can be given a frame, placed
into a context that is neutral and shared as a common knowledge
by all members of FIS.</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2016. nov. 29. 15:15 ezt írta ("Karl
Javorszky" <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>>):<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">Topology<br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr">The session so far has raised the points:
meta-communication, subject-matter, order, spaces.<br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr">a.) Meta-communication</p>
<p dir="ltr">Gordana’s summary explicates the need to have a
system of references that FIS can use to discuss whatever
it wishes to discuss, be it the equivalence between energy
and information or the concept of space in the human
brain. Whatever the personal background, interests or
intellectual creations of the members of FIS, we each have
been taught addition, multiplication, division and the
like. We also know how to read a map and remember well
where we had put a thing as we are going to retrieve it.
When discussing the intricate, philosophical points which
are common to all formulations of this session, it may be
helpful to use such words and procedures that are
well-known to each one of us, while describing what we do
while we use topology.<br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr">b.) Subject-matter</p>
<p dir="ltr">Topology is managed by much older structures of
the central nervous system than those that manage speech,
counting, abstract ideas. Animals and small children
remember their way to food and other attractions. Children
discover and use topology far before they can count.
Topology is a primitive ancestor to mathematics; its ideas
and methods are archaic and may appear as lacking in
refinement and intelligence.<br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr">c.) Order</p>
<p dir="ltr">There is no need to discuss whether Nature is
well-ordered or not. Our brain is surely extremely well
ordered, otherwise we had seizures, tics, disintegrative
features. In discussing topology we can make use of the
condition that everything we investigate is extremely well
ordered. We may not be able to understand Nature, but we
may get an idea about how our brain functions, in its
capacity as an extremely well ordered system. We can make
a half-step towards modelling artificial intelligence by
understanding at first, how artificial instincts, and
their conflicts, can be modelled. Animals apparently
utilise a different layer of reality of the world while
building up their orientation in it to that which humans
perceive as important. The path of understanding how
primitive instincts work begins with a half-step of
dumbing down. It is no more interesting, how many they
are, now we only look at where it is relative to how it
appears, compared with the others.<br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr">d.) Spaces</p>
<p dir="ltr">Out of sequences, planes naturally evolve.
Whether out of the planes spaces can be constructed,
depends on the kinds of planes and of common axes. Now the
natural numbers come in handy, as we can demonstrate to
each other on natural numbers, how in a well-ordered
collection the actual mechanism of place changes creates
by itself two rectangular, Euclidean, spaces. These can be
merged into one common space, but in that, there are four
variants of every certainty coming from the position
within the sequence. Furthermore, all these spaces are
transcended by two planes. The discussion about an
oriented entity in a space of n dimensions can be given a
frame, placed into a context that is neutral and shared as
a common knowledge by all members of FIS.</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2016. nov. 25. 14:44 ezt írta (
<<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>>):<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p style="margin-top:0px" dir="ltr">Dear Joseph, <br>
The Borsuk-Ulam theorem looks like a translucent
glass sphere between a light source and our eyes:
we watch two lights on the sphere surface instead
of one. But the two lights are not just images,
they are also real with observable properties,
such as intensity and diameter. <br>
Until the sphere lies between your eyes and the
light source, the lights you can see are two (and
it is valid also for every objective observer),
it's not just a trick of your imagination or a
Kantian a priori. <br>
Therefore, the link between topology and
energy/information is very strong. If we just
think the facts and the events of the world in
terms of projections, we are able to
quantitatively elucidate puzzling and
counterintuitive phenomena, such as, for example,
quantum entanglement<br>
<a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10773-016-2998-7" target="_blank">https://link.springer.com/arti<wbr>cle/10.1007/s10773-016-2998-7</a></p>
<p dir="ltr">Therefore, the 'eternal' discussion of
whether geometry or energy (call it dynamics,
informational entropy, or whatsoever) is more
fundamental in the universe, does not stand
anymore: both geometry and energy describe the
same phenomena, although with different
languages. In physical terms, we could say that
geometry and energy are 'dual' theories, e.g.,
they are interchangeable in the description of
real facts and events. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div id="m_7021151612199246645m_449244164563425182m_4166931447349316921mail-app-auto-default-signature">
<p dir="ltr">--<br>
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</p>
</div>
venerdì, 25 novembre 2016, 00:28PM +01:00 da Joseph
Brenner <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>:<br>
<br>
<blockquote id="m_7021151612199246645m_449244164563425182m_4166931447349316921mail-app-auto-quote" style="border-left:1px solid #85af31;margin:0px 0px 0px 10px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px" cite="http://14800735500000025323">
<div class="m_7021151612199246645m_449244164563425182m_4166931447349316921js-helper
m_449244164563425182m_4166931447349316921js-readmsg-msg">
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<div id="m_7021151612199246645m_449244164563425182m_4166931447349316921style_14800735500000025323_BODY">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear All,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Pedro
should be thanked already for this new
Session, even as we welcome Andrew and
Alexander. The depth of your work
facilitates rigorous discussion of
serious philosophical as well as
scientific issues.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">In Pedro's
note of 2016.11.24 there is the
following:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">"<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Somehow,
the projection of brain "metastable
dynamics" (Fingelkurts) to higher
dimensionalities could provide new
integrative possibilities for
information processing. And that
marriage between topology and dynamics
would also pave the way to new
evolutionary discussions on the
emergence of the "imagined present" of
our minds."</font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">What Pedro
calls here "the marriage between
topology and dynamics" reminds one of
the 'eternal' discussion of whether
geometry or energy (dynamics) is more
fundamental in the universe. I just
suggest that there are alternative terms
to focus on and describe the interaction
between topology and dynamics that are
more - dynamic, and make an emergence a
more logical consequence of that
interaction.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Best
wishes,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Joseph</font></div>
</div>
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