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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear Alex and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Thank you for the reference; but my argument was about “meaning”. “Meaning” can only be considered as constructed in language. Other uses of the word are metaphorical. For example, the citation to Maturana.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Information, in my opinion, can be defined content-free (a la Shannon, etc.) and then be provided with meaning in (scholarly) discourses. I consider physics as one among other scholarly discourses. Specific about physics is perhaps the universalistic character of the knowledge claims. For example: “Frieden's points apply to quantum physics <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>as well as classical physics.“ So what? This seems to me a debate within physics without much relevance for non-physicists (e.g., economists or linguists).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Professor, University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>loet@leydesdorff.net </span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>; </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Associate Faculty, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>SPRU, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>University of Sussex; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Guest Professor </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Beijing;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Visiting Professor, </span><a name="_GoBack"></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>, University of London; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Alex Hankey [mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:07 PM<br><b>To:</b> Loet Leydesdorff; FIS Webinar<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of spacetime?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Dear Loet and Fis Colleagues, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Are you aware of Roy Frieden's <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>'Physics from Fisher Information'. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>His book was published in the 1990s.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I consider it a very powerful statement. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Ultimately everything we can detect at <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>both macroscopic and microscopic levels <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>depends on information production from <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>a quantum level that forms Fisher Information. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Frieden's points apply to quantum physics <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>as well as classical physics. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Best wishes, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Alex Hankey <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On 12 November 2016 at 18:56, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear Marcus, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>When considering things in terms of "functional significance" one must confront the need to address "meaning" in terms of both the living and the physical . . . and their necessarily entangled nature.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>“Meaning” is first a linguistic construct; its construction requires interhuman communication. However, its use in terms of the living and/or the physical is metaphorical. Instead of a discourse, one can this consider (with Maturana) as a “second-order consensual domain” that functions AS a semantic domain without being one; Maturana (1978, p. 50): </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>“In still other words, if an organism is observed in its operation within a second-order consensual domain, it appears to the observer <b>as if</b> its nervous system interacted with internal representations of the circumstances of its interactions, and as if the changes of state of the organism were determined by the semantic value of these representations. Yet all that takes place in the operation of the nervous system is the structure-determined dynamics of changing relations of relative neuronal activity proper to a closed neuronal network.”</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>Failing to "make that connection" simply leaves one with an explanatory gap. And then, once connected, a further link to "space-time" is also easily located . . .</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Yes, indeed: limiting the discussion to the metaphors instead of going to the phore (that is, language and codification in language) leaves one with an explanatory gap. Quantum physics, for example, is a highly specialized language in which “mass” and “information” are provided with meanings different from classical physics.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Best, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.)<br>Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,<br>SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle<br>Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India <br>Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195 </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"'><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00796107/119/3" target="_blank"><span style='color:#1155CC'>2015 JPBMB Special Issue on Integral Biomathics: Life Sciences, Mathematics and Phenomenological Philosophy</span></a></span><span style='font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>