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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Karl and All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I believe I have right to this message at the start
of a new week. Apologies if this is not the case.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Unfortunately, while I am glad to agree with some
of Karl's remarks, I must categorically reject others as 'dead fish', both those
that are attributed to me and some which are not:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. ...</FONT>whether one is more attracted to
monotheistic or rather polytheistic general explanations of reality. The model’s
algorithms proposed are of the polygenetic school of thought: aspects of
<I>a+b=c </I>are in an eternal battle of pre-eminence among each other.</DIV>
<DIV>Tokens are but symbols . . . </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I can accept this approach provided a, b and c are
no longer considered 'tokens'. What Logic in Reality does is to define the
evolution of this battle in energetic logical terms, where a, b, and c are
elements of processes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. <SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>We
will certainly agree on a Pythagorean basis, that meditating on the relations
among numbers will educate the open-minded about main properties of
Nature.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><SPAN>The model builds on cyclic permutations being the fundament of
thinking and counting, therefore the basic fundament of imaginations about
Nature.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I disagree radically with these statements. If that
makes me closed-minded so be it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>3.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> The picture
resulting will by all means benefit from a bit of getting used to, but on the
other hand, it is free of contradictions, consistent in itself, appears to model
Nature quite well</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For the reasons stated in 3., these statements are
also unacceptable. Consistency and freedom from contradiction are
characteristics of abstract logic, mathematics and number theory, not of Nature,
including information and probability. I suggest they stay where they
belong.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I do not want anything I say to be accepted as
'God's gift to information theory'. That principle should apply
generally.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=karl.javorszky@gmail.com href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com">Karl
Javorszky</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">Joseph Brenner</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=deacon@berkeley.edu
href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">Terrence Deacon</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> ; <A
title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A> ;
<A title=darvasg@iif.hu href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu">Gyorgy Darvas</A> ; <A
title=logan@physics.utoronto.ca href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca">Bob
Logan</A> ; <A title=andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se
href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se">Andrei Khrennikov</A> ; <A
title=rafael@capurro.de href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de">rafael@capurro.de</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 07, 2016 10:22
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Commutativity</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE-AT>Dear Joseph,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=DE-AT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>your well-chosen words about the logical obsolescence
of commutativity as a basic rule express the idea on a verbal level. My
approach was on the level of combinatorics. Common is to both conceptions of
the same problem that an era has come to an end. We have to confront a new
concept of reality.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>The model investigates how logical conflicts will be
consolidated. The logical conflicts do not appear visible until one imposes
sequential order on the elements. The main idea is that we enter a field of
schizophrenia: logical systems do not contain contradictions but we have here
a logical system that does contain contradictions. Is the reality full of
contradictions? Is it possible to create a consistent, logical picture of the
world that is self-contradictory? How is it possible to have a logically sound
current moment in life while the process in which each transversal moment is
logically true, nevertheless the same process is, at least at times, along a
longitudinal axis logically inconsistent and ends in
discontinuities?</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>The answer lies in the steps of transition from one
sequence into a different sequence. This is a very basic way of creating a
picture of reality. Pythagoras would have introduced it and Euclid had written
a book on it – if they had had computers at their disposal. One needs
computers to deal with the sheer quantity of numbers. No human brain can keep
track of the complicated patterns that stitch the elements of reality
together.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>The reorganisations weave a grid-cum-web of the
patterns of movements of parts. There are typical patterns of movements if one
reorders logical tokens that are individually numbered. The tokens are but
symbols, like the symbols one gives to one’s teddy bears or dolls or tin
soldiers. Now one enters a detailed dreamery about which teddy bear changes
place with which other token. One will want to make use of a computer to
follow this exercise of imagination through to the very end. The tokens are
themselves devoid of movement. It is the human brain that imagines that they
move from a place to a different place while the assembly is being
reordered.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>Your question, to which general concepts of the world
will be of no use a model that depicts Nature as being of a dual character,
always in a compromise between conflicting requirements: this question is
comparable to a meditation about whether one is more attracted to monotheistic
or rather polytheistic general explanations of reality. The model’s algorithms
proposed are of the polygenetic school of thought: aspects of <I>a+b=c </I>are
in an eternal battle of pre-eminence among each other and agree or do not
agree on the occupation of available places by transitory elements. It shows a
much more Hindu variant of a basic concept of the world than the monoideistic
ones. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>We will certainly agree on a Pythagorean basis, that
meditating on the relations among numbers will educate the open-minded about
main properties of Nature. We also agree that rules can be changed and that
the time seems to have come to question the usefulness of the commutativity
doctrine. The actual tool I respectfully put forward for the use of the
scientific community is a positive, constructive contribution to the
dissonance you have so elegantly addressed. We say as a chorus: it is time to
do away with commutativity. Then you say about how this affects the teachings,
and I say: ok, and this is what we shall do to replace and improve on
commutativity. Let us take a collection of tokens and sequence them. Then we
resequence. Then we observe the place changes. The rest is a simple
continuation of this, like the repeated applications of rules of elementary
algebra, or even elementary arithmetic, will give rise to mighty tools of
decision-making calculations. The basis is indeed very simple. The literature
knows the artefacts of reorderings under the name “cyclic permutations”. The
model builds on cyclic permutations being the fundament of thinking and
counting, therefore the basic fundament of imaginations about Nature. The
picture resulting will by all means benefit from a bit of getting used to, but
on the other hand, it is free of contradictions, consistent in itself, appears
to model Nature quite well and demonstrates how a change in a sequence of 4
symbols on 3 positions will affect the properties of multidimensional
assemblies. To my understanding, this is what was needed. Here it is,
now.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>You have spoken out clearly – and the elite
understands you, because you talk their language – that something new has to
come now that commutativity is as credible as a dead fish. Thank you for being
the first to stand up and declare that a long era of simplified thinking has
come to an end.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>Karl</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2016-11-05 11:15 GMT+01:00 Joseph Brenner <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
target=_blank>joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</A>></SPAN>:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><U></U>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well, Karl, it still takes some reading of what
I have written to find important points of agreement as well as
disagreement. In my 2008 book I noted that /both/ commutativity and
distributivity should not be required in descriptions of real
systems:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face=Times size=2>In
LIR, since no individual term is an identity, that is, unconnected to other
terms, one has the same relation as that between a term and the context that
perturbs it. Both the commutative law of standard logic, </FONT><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Times>(a + b) + c<SPAN> </SPAN>=<SPAN>
</SPAN>a + (b + c)<SPAN> </SPAN>and the distributive law between
conjunction<SPAN> </SPAN>and disjunction</FONT></FONT><FONT
size=2><FONT
face=Times><SPAN> <WBR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times">do not hold. Any applicable
formalism is, accordingly, non-Abelian and non-Boolean respectively, and the
resulting probability distribution</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times">s are non-Kolmogorovian. The
detailed mathematics remain to be worked out for the LIR description of
reality values as ‘probability-like’</SPAN><A title=""
name=m_3667522292878525352__ftnref1><SPAN
class=m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times"><SPAN><SPAN
class=m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times">[1]</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times">.</SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV id=m_3667522292878525352ftn1>
<P class=m_3667522292878525352FunotentextFootnote
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 2pt"><A title=""
name=m_3667522292878525352__ftn1><SPAN
class=m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt"><SPAN><SPAN
class=m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 6pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times">[1]</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></A><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Times> These values are like objective probabilities which
do not indicate limits of knowledge, but are about the properties that
things objectively have.<SPAN
lang=FR-CH><U></U><U></U><U></U></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I feel that no notion of real use can be clear
and concise. The elements of logic are not 'tokens', a term that conveys
something inert, lacking its own dynamics (ability to change). There are, as
I hope we could agree, details of reality also lost in the use of your
'sequencing' tool.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You could help to resolve the issue with one
simple comment: to what complex processes does your approach NOT
apply?</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=karl.javorszky@gmail.com href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Karl Javorszky</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target=_blank>Joseph Brenner</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=deacon@berkeley.edu
href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target=_blank>Terrence Deacon</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis</A> ; <A title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target=_blank>John Collier</A> ; <A
title=darvasg@iif.hu href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu" target=_blank>Gyorgy
Darvas</A> ; <A title=logan@physics.utoronto.ca
href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" target=_blank>Bob Logan</A> ; <A
title=andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se"
target=_blank>Andrei Khrennikov</A> ; <A title=rafael@capurro.de
href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de" target=_blank>rafael@capurro.de</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 04, 2016 9:43
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Is quantum
information the basis of spacetime?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<P dir=ltr>Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired
definition of information as an operator (produced quantity).</P>
<P dir=ltr>The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice,
ideas, philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to
commutativity.</P>
<P dir=ltr>This is heresy, I understand. On the other hand, time may now
have come to face up the truth. We see that (a,b)->c is different to
(b,a)->c. We have learnt that this obvious difference is to be
disregarded. We wish the clearly visible difference away so we get a
picture of the world which is easier to work with. Of course, if I say
that it makes no difference whether a or b has a positional advantage
/pace opinion research questionnaries/, I don't have to worry about the
endless complications arising from the question, which was first, a or
b.</P>
<P dir=ltr>The system simplified as it is in use presently is not
versatile, detailed and nuanced enough to allow for the introduction of
words that describe the ideas.</P>
<P dir=ltr>One cannot explain trigonometry as long as the definition is in
power that all triangles are to be seen in their unified variant and the
proportion of the sides to each other is by definition irrelevant.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Come the day you want to find a clear, concise, operator based
tool to measure information content (based on properties of natural
numbers), please look up my book Natürliche Ordnungen, available thru
morawa or amazon etc.</P>
<P dir=ltr>It is a completely new world out there if one stops thinking in
a world made up by wishing away important details. There is power in them
there sequences. No wonder Nature uses them in perpetuating life. Let us
no more pretend commutativity is without alternatives. We have computers.
We can keep track of the problems arising from actually observing and
using sequential properties of logical tokens. That one can explain what
the term "information" amounts to is just one of the discoveries one makes
while using the tool of sequencing.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Do look it up. It has been made for your use. </P>
<P dir=ltr>Respectfully<BR>Karl</P>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 4 Nov 2016 18:06, "Joseph Brenner" <<A
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
target=_blank>joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</A>> wrote:<BR type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><U></U>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree with the consensus I see emerging.
Andrei shows the problem of trying to pin down a complex process with a
single term - information. And I agree with Rafael that information must
have a valence. On the other hand, as such, information cannot be
completely defined mathematically, <EM>pace </EM>Karl, any more than
anything living can be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It is discouraging to see how reductionist
theories like 'It-from-Bit' get reproduced and disseminated by
<EM>Scientific American</EM>, which used to be a good journal. One
cannot simply ignore the reactionary sub-text of such 'science', even if
a product of the "Perimeter Institute for Theoretical
Physics".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One could say rather that <EM>quanta</EM>,
not quantum information, are the basis for spacetime. At the sub-quantum
level, I think we have already said that whatever the way in which
energy is exchanged, nothing is gained by calling it information. (We
may make an exception for the case of non-locality defined by Bell
inequalities.) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The only nuance I would add is that
although we can speak of biotic and Shannon information (better, today,
Shannon-Boltzmann-Darwin as in Terry's explication), the properties of
information_as_process have not been completely described. I would
like to see the concept of information as an operator, causally
effective because of its being energy, explored
further.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you and best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rafael@capurro.de href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de"
target=_blank>Rafael Capurro</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=logan@physics.utoronto.ca
href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" target=_blank>Bob Logan</A> ;
<A title=andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se
href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" target=_blank>Andrei
Khrennikov</A> ; <A title=darvasg@iif.hu href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu"
target=_blank>Gyorgy Darvas</A> ; <A title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target=_blank>John Collier</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 04, 2016
3:47 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Is quantum
information the basis of spacetime?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>Andrei, maybe the concept of message as
already used by Shannon and Weaver in specific engineering contexts
(this must not be always the case) is more appropriate and also able
to speak about 'information' as what is 'in' a message 'for' a
receiver. Best. Rafael<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Hello Andrei - I am with you - sharing you
sentiment. Information only pertains to living organisms and entails
some signals that help them make a choice. A black hole makes no
choices - it is ruled by the laws of physics. Abiotic systems have
no information. A book is a set of signals that a reader can convert
into information if they know the language which the book is
written. A book written in Urdu contains no information for me other
than this appears to be a set of signals that contains information
for a reader in the language in which this book was written. Who
reads a black hole. How does it contain information that makes a
difference. When we launch a satellite to orbit the earth we do not
say that the sun is informing the satellite how to behave. The
satellite is just following the laws of physics. It has no choice
and so it is not being informed. There are many different forms of
information (biotic and Shannon as found in the 2007
paper <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Propagating
Organization: An Inquiry by </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Kauffman, Logan et al.
in </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Biology and Philosophy
23: 27-45)</SPAN> so we do not need to
complicate things even more by ascribing the laws of physics as the
communication of information.
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; border-spacing: 0px"><SPAN
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<DIV><SPAN
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">______________________</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN><SPAN
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<DIV><SPAN
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></SPAN></DIV>Robert K. Logan</SPAN><SPAN
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Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </SPAN>
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University of St. Michael's College</SPAN></DIV>
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Scientist - sLab at OCAD</SPAN><SPAN
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href="http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan"
target=_blank>http://utoronto.academia.edu/R<WBR>obertKLogan</A></SPAN>
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target=_blank>www.physics.utoronto.ca/Member<WBR>s/logan</A></SPAN></DIV>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><A
href="http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications"
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<DIV>
<DIV>On Nov 4, 2016, at 4:17 AM, Andrei Khrennikov <<A
href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se"
target=_blank>andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>
<DIV> Dear all, <BR>I want to comment
so called information approach to physics, by speaking with hundreds
of leading experts<BR>in quantum foundations, I found that nobody
can define rigorously the basic term "information" which is so
widely <BR>used in their theories and discussions, the answers are
as "information is the basic entity" which cannot be defined <BR>in
other terms. Well, my impression is that without novel understanding
and definition of information all these "theories" <BR>are
practically empty, well very good mathematical exercises. May be I
am too critical... But I spent so much time by trying <BR>to
understand what people are talking about. The output is
ZERO.<BR><BR>all the best, andrei
<BR><BR>Andrei Khrennikov,
Professor of Applied Mathematics,<BR>Int. Center Math Modeling:
Physics, Engineering, Economics, and Cognitive Sc.<BR>Linnaeus
University, Växjö, Sweden<BR>My RECENT BOOKS:<BR><A
href="http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036"
target=_blank>http://www.worldscientific.com<WBR>/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036</A><BR><A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.springer.com/in/book/9789401798181"
target=_blank>http://www.springer.com/in/boo<WBR>k/9789401798181</A><BR><A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814411738.html"
target=_blank>http://www.panstanford.com/boo<WBR>ks/9789814411738.html</A><BR><A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.cambridge.org/cr/academic/subjects/physics/econophysics-and-financial-physics/quantum-social-science"
target=_blank>http://www.cambridge.org/cr/ac<WBR>ademic/subjects/physics/econop<WBR>hysics-and-financial-physics/<WBR>quantum-social-science</A><BR><A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642051005"
target=_blank>http://www.springer.com/us/boo<WBR>k/9783642051005</A><BR><BR>______________________________<WBR>__________<BR>From:
Fis [<A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</A>] on behalf of Gyorgy
Darvas [<A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu"
target=_blank>darvasg@iif.hu</A>]<BR>Sent: Thursday, November 03,
2016 10:23 PM<BR>To: John Collier; fis<BR>Subject: Re: [Fis] Is
quantum information the basis of spacetime?<BR><BR>John:<BR>The
article describes very really the conflicting attitudes. Interesting
to see the diverse arguments together.<BR>I agree, some think so,
some do not. I do the latter, but this does not make any
matter.<BR>Gyuri<BR><BR>On 2016.11.03. 19:52, John Collier
wrote:<BR>Apparently some physicists think so.<BR><BR><A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161102"
target=_blank>https://www.scientificamerican<WBR>.com/article/tangled-up-in-spa<WBR>cetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_2016110<WBR>2</A><BR><BR>John
Collier<BR>Emeritus Professor and Senior Research
Associate<BR>Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<BR><A
class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"
target=_blank>http://web.ncf.ca/collier</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>______________________________<WBR>_________________<BR>Fis
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<P><BR></P><PRE class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-signature cols="72">--
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (<A class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org" target=_blank>http://www.capurro-fiek-found<WBR>ation.org</A>)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (<A class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://icie.zkm.de" target=_blank>http://icie.zkm.de</A>)
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (<A class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.i-r-i-e.net" target=_blank>http://www.i-r-i-e.net</A>)
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
E-Mail: <A class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de" target=_blank>rafael@capurro.de</A>
Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
Homepage: <A class=m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.capurro.de" target=_blank>www.capurro.de</A>
</PRE>
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