<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-AT">Dear Joseph,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-AT"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>your well-chosen words
about the logical obsolescence of commutativity as a basic rule express the
idea on a verbal level. My approach was on the level of combinatorics. Common
is to both conceptions of the same problem that an era has come to an end. We
have to confront a new concept of reality.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The model investigates
how logical conflicts will be consolidated. The logical conflicts do not appear
visible until one imposes sequential order on the elements. The main idea is
that we enter a field of schizophrenia: logical systems do not contain
contradictions but we have here a logical system that does contain
contradictions. Is the reality full of contradictions? Is it possible to create
a consistent, logical picture of the world that is self-contradictory? How is it
possible to have a logically sound current moment in life while the process in
which each transversal moment is logically true, nevertheless the same process
is, at least at times, along a longitudinal axis logically inconsistent and
ends in discontinuities?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The answer lies in the
steps of transition from one sequence into a different sequence. This is a very
basic way of creating a picture of reality. Pythagoras would have introduced it
and Euclid had written a book on it – if they had had computers at their
disposal. One needs computers to deal with the sheer quantity of numbers. No
human brain can keep track of the complicated patterns that stitch the elements
of reality together.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The reorganisations
weave a grid-cum-web of the patterns of movements of parts. There are typical
patterns of movements if one reorders logical tokens that are individually
numbered. The tokens are but symbols, like the symbols one gives to one’s teddy
bears or dolls or tin soldiers. Now one enters a detailed dreamery about which
teddy bear changes place with which other token. One will want to make use of a
computer to follow this exercise of imagination through to the very end. The
tokens are themselves devoid of movement. It is the human brain that imagines
that they move from a place to a different place while the assembly is being
reordered.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Your question, to
which general concepts of the world will be of no use a model that depicts
Nature as being of a dual character, always in a compromise between conflicting
requirements: this question is comparable to a meditation about whether one is
more attracted to monotheistic or rather polytheistic general explanations of
reality. The model’s algorithms proposed are of the polygenetic school of
thought: aspects of <i>a+b=c </i>are in an
eternal battle of pre-eminence among each other and agree or do not agree on
the occupation of available places by transitory elements. It shows a much more
Hindu variant of a basic concept of the world than the monoideistic ones. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>We will certainly
agree on a Pythagorean basis, that meditating on the relations among numbers
will educate the open-minded about main properties of Nature. We also agree
that rules can be changed and that the time seems to have come to question the
usefulness of the commutativity doctrine. The actual tool I respectfully put
forward for the use of the scientific community is a positive, constructive
contribution to the dissonance you have so elegantly addressed. We say as a
chorus: it is time to do away with commutativity. Then you say about how this
affects the teachings, and I say: ok, and this is what we shall do to replace
and improve on commutativity. Let us take a collection of tokens and sequence
them. Then we resequence. Then we observe the place changes. The rest is a
simple continuation of this, like the repeated applications of rules of
elementary algebra, or even elementary arithmetic, will give rise to mighty
tools of decision-making calculations. The basis is indeed very simple. The
literature knows the artefacts of reorderings under the name “cyclic
permutations”. The model builds on cyclic permutations being the fundament of
thinking and counting, therefore the basic fundament of imaginations about
Nature. The picture resulting will by all means benefit from a bit of getting
used to, but on the other hand, it is free of contradictions, consistent in
itself, appears to model Nature quite well and demonstrates how a change in a
sequence of 4 symbols on 3 positions will affect the properties of multidimensional
assemblies. To my understanding, this is what was needed. Here it is, now.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>You have spoken out
clearly – and the elite understands you, because you talk their language – that
something new has to come now that commutativity is as credible as a dead fish.
Thank you for being the first to stand up and declare that a long era of
simplified thinking has come to an end.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Karl</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2016-11-05 11:15 GMT+01:00 Joseph Brenner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Well, Karl, it still takes some reading of what I
have written to find important points of agreement as well as disagreement. In
my 2008 book I noted that /both/ commutativity and distributivity should not be
required in descriptions of real systems:</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="2" face="Times">In LIR,
since no individual term is an identity, that is, unconnected to other terms,
one has the same relation as that between a term and the context that perturbs
it. Both the commutative law of standard logic, </font><font size="2"><font face="Times">(a + b) + c<span> </span>=<span> </span>a + (b + c)<span> </span>and the distributive law between
conjunction<span> </span>and
disjunction</font></font><font size="2"><font face="Times"><span> <wbr>
</span></font></font></p><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Times">do
not hold. Any applicable formalism is, accordingly, non-Abelian and non-Boolean
respectively, and the resulting probability distribution</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Times">s
are non-Kolmogorovian. The detailed mathematics remain to be worked out for the
LIR description of reality values as ‘probability-like’</span><a title="" name="m_3667522292878525352__ftnref1"><span class="m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="FONT-SIZE:6pt;FONT-FAMILY:Times"><span><span class="m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="FONT-SIZE:6pt;FONT-FAMILY:Times">[1]</span></span></span></span></span></a><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Times">.</span>
<div>
<div id="m_3667522292878525352ftn1">
<p class="m_3667522292878525352FunotentextFootnote" style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 2pt"><a title="" name="m_3667522292878525352__ftn1"><span class="m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="FONT-SIZE:6pt"><span><span class="m_3667522292878525352MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="FONT-SIZE:6pt;FONT-FAMILY:Times">[1]</span></span></span></span></span></a><font size="2"><font face="Times"> These values are like objective probabilities which do
not indicate limits of knowledge, but are about the properties that things
objectively have.<span lang="FR-CH"><u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font></font></p></div></div></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I feel that no notion of real use can be clear and
concise. The elements of logic are not 'tokens', a term that conveys something
inert, lacking its own dynamics (ability to change). There are, as I hope we
could agree, details of reality also lost in the use of your 'sequencing'
tool.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">You could help to resolve the issue with one simple
comment: to what complex processes does your approach NOT
apply?</font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Thank you.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Joseph</font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4;FONT:10pt arial"><b>From:</b>
<a title="karl.javorszky@gmail.com" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">Karl
Javorszky</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">Joseph Brenner</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="deacon@berkeley.edu" href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">Terrence Deacon</a> ; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> ; <a title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">John Collier</a> ;
<a title="darvasg@iif.hu" href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu" target="_blank">Gyorgy Darvas</a> ; <a title="logan@physics.utoronto.ca" href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">Bob
Logan</a> ; <a title="andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" target="_blank">Andrei Khrennikov</a> ; <a title="rafael@capurro.de" href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de" target="_blank">rafael@capurro.de</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 04, 2016 9:43
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Is quantum information
the basis of spacetime?</div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><br></div>
<p dir="ltr">Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired
definition of information as an operator (produced quantity).</p>
<p dir="ltr">The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice,
ideas, philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to
commutativity.</p>
<p dir="ltr">This is heresy, I understand. On the other hand, time may now have
come to face up the truth. We see that (a,b)->c is different to
(b,a)->c. We have learnt that this obvious difference is to be disregarded.
We wish the clearly visible difference away so we get a picture of the world
which is easier to work with. Of course, if I say that it makes no difference
whether a or b has a positional advantage /pace opinion research
questionnaries/, I don't have to worry about the endless complications arising
from the question, which was first, a or b.</p>
<p dir="ltr">The system simplified as it is in use presently is not versatile,
detailed and nuanced enough to allow for the introduction of words that
describe the ideas.</p>
<p dir="ltr">One cannot explain trigonometry as long as the definition is in
power that all triangles are to be seen in their unified variant and the
proportion of the sides to each other is by definition irrelevant.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Come the day you want to find a clear, concise, operator based tool
to measure information content (based on properties of natural numbers),
please look up my book Natürliche Ordnungen, available thru morawa or amazon
etc.</p>
<p dir="ltr">It is a completely new world out there if one stops thinking in a
world made up by wishing away important details. There is power in them there
sequences. No wonder Nature uses them in perpetuating life. Let us no more
pretend commutativity is without alternatives. We have computers. We can keep
track of the problems arising from actually observing and using sequential
properties of logical tokens. That one can explain what the term "information"
amounts to is just one of the discoveries one makes while using the tool of
sequencing.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Do look it up. It has been made for your use. </p>
<p dir="ltr">Respectfully<br>Karl</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 4 Nov 2016 18:06, "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Dear All,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I agree with the consensus I see emerging.
Andrei shows the problem of trying to pin down a complex process with a
single term - information. And I agree with Rafael that information must
have a valence. On the other hand, as such, information cannot be completely
defined mathematically, <em>pace </em>Karl, any more than anything living
can be.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">It is discouraging to see how reductionist
theories like 'It-from-Bit' get reproduced and disseminated by
<em>Scientific American</em>, which used to be a good journal. One cannot
simply ignore the reactionary sub-text of such 'science', even if a product
of the "Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics".</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">One could say rather that <em>quanta</em>, not
quantum information, are the basis for spacetime. At the sub-quantum level,
I think we have already said that whatever the way in which energy is
exchanged, nothing is gained by calling it information. (We may make an
exception for the case of non-locality defined by Bell inequalities.)
</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">The only nuance I would add is that although we
can speak of biotic and Shannon information (better, today,
Shannon-Boltzmann-Darwin as in Terry's explication), the properties of
information_as_process have not been completely described. I would like
to see the concept of information as an operator, causally effective because
of its being energy, explored further.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Thank you and best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Joseph</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4;FONT:10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title="rafael@capurro.de" href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de" target="_blank">Rafael Capurro</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="logan@physics.utoronto.ca" href="mailto:logan@physics.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">Bob Logan</a> ; <a title="andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" target="_blank">Andrei Khrennikov</a>
; <a title="darvasg@iif.hu" href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu" target="_blank">Gyorgy Darvas</a> ; <a title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" target="_blank">John Collier</a> ; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 04, 2016 3:47
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Is quantum
information the basis of spacetime?</div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><br></div>Andrei, maybe the
concept of message as already used by Shannon and Weaver in specific
engineering contexts (this must not be always the case) is more
appropriate and also able to speak about 'information' as what is 'in' a
message 'for' a receiver. Best. Rafael<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hello Andrei - I am with you - sharing you
sentiment. Information only pertains to living organisms and entails
some signals that help them make a choice. A black hole makes no choices
- it is ruled by the laws of physics. Abiotic systems have no
information. A book is a set of signals that a reader can convert into
information if they know the language which the book is written. A book
written in Urdu contains no information for me other than this appears
to be a set of signals that contains information for a reader in the
language in which this book was written. Who reads a black hole. How
does it contain information that makes a difference. When we launch a
satellite to orbit the earth we do not say that the sun is informing the
satellite how to behave. The satellite is just following the laws of
physics. It has no choice and so it is not being informed. There are
many different forms of information (biotic and Shannon as found in the
2007 paper <span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Calibri">Propagating Organization:
An Inquiry by </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:16px;FONT-FAMILY:Calibri">Kauffman, Logan et al. in
</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Calibri">Biology and
Philosophy 23: 27-45)</span> so we do not need
to complicate things even more by ascribing the laws of physics as the
communication of information.
<div>
<div><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="LINE-HEIGHT:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;border-spacing:0px"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
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<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">
<div><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE:12px">______________________</span></div></div></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE:12px">
<div><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font><br></span></div>Robert
K. Logan</span><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="TEXT-INDENT:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING:0px;FONT:12px Helvetica;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate">Prof.
Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto </span>
<div><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="FONT-WEIGHT:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);TEXT-INDENT:0px;LINE-HEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;FONT-FAMILY:Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT-VARIANT:normal"></span><span class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING:0px;FONT:12px Helvetica;TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;COLOR:rgb(0,0,0);WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate">Fellow
University of St. Michael's College</span></div>
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<div>
<div>On Nov 4, 2016, at 4:17 AM, Andrei Khrennikov <<a href="mailto:andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se" target="_blank">andrei.khrennikov@lnu.se</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div> Dear all, <br>I want to comment so
called information approach to physics, by speaking with hundreds of
leading experts<br>in quantum foundations, I found that nobody can
define rigorously the basic term "information" which is so widely
<br>used in their theories and discussions, the answers are as
"information is the basic entity" which cannot be defined <br>in other
terms. Well, my impression is that without novel understanding and
definition of information all these "theories" <br>are practically
empty, well very good mathematical exercises. May be I am too
critical... But I spent so much time by trying <br>to understand what
people are talking about. The output is ZERO.<br><br>all the best,
andrei <br><br>Andrei
Khrennikov, Professor of Applied Mathematics,<br>Int. Center Math
Modeling: Physics, Engineering, Economics, and Cognitive Sc.<br>Linnaeus
University, Växjö, Sweden<br>My RECENT BOOKS:<br><a href="http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036" target="_blank">http://www.worldscientific.com<wbr>/worldscibooks/10.1142/p1036</a><br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.springer.com/in/book/9789401798181" target="_blank">http://www.springer.com/in/boo<wbr>k/9789401798181</a><br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814411738.html" target="_blank">http://www.panstanford.com/boo<wbr>ks/9789814411738.html</a><br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.cambridge.org/cr/academic/subjects/physics/econophysics-and-financial-physics/quantum-social-science" target="_blank">http://www.cambridge.org/cr/ac<wbr>ademic/subjects/physics/econop<wbr>hysics-and-financial-physics/<wbr>quantum-social-science</a><br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783642051005" target="_blank">http://www.springer.com/us/boo<wbr>k/9783642051005</a><br><br>______________________________<wbr>__________<br>From:
Fis [<a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] on behalf of Gyorgy
Darvas [<a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:darvasg@iif.hu" target="_blank">darvasg@iif.hu</a>]<br>Sent:
Thursday, November 03, 2016 10:23 PM<br>To: John Collier;
fis<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of
spacetime?<br><br>John:<br>The article describes very really the
conflicting attitudes. Interesting to see the diverse arguments
together.<br>I agree, some think so, some do not. I do the latter, but
this does not make any matter.<br>Gyuri<br><br>On 2016.11.03. 19:52,
John Collier wrote:<br>Apparently some physicists think so.<br><br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161102" target="_blank">https://www.scientificamerican<wbr>.com/article/tangled-up-in-spa<wbr>cetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_2016110<wbr>2</a><br><br>John
Collier<br>Emeritus Professor and Senior Research
Associate<br>Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal<br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier" target="_blank">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</a><br><br><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Fis
mailing list<br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><mailto:Fi<wbr>s@listas.unizar.es></a><br><a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bi<wbr>n/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Fis
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<br><pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</pre></blockquote><br>
<p><br></p><pre class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-signature" cols="72">--
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (<a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org" target="_blank">http://www.capurro-fiek-found<wbr>ation.org</a>)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (<a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://icie.zkm.de" target="_blank">http://icie.zkm.de</a>)
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (<a class="m_3667522292878525352m_-1059890186105556545moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.i-r-i-e.net" target="_blank">http://www.i-r-i-e.net</a>)
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
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Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
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</pre>
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