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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Mark and all,<br>
<br>
I agree with your criticisms on Floridi. My own look like this:<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "times new
roman", times, serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: justify; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(204, 204,
204); display: inline !important; float: none;">In his paper<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
href="http://www.philosophyofinformation.net/blog/2008/03/against-digital-ontology.html"
style="font-family: "times new roman", times, serif;
font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: justify;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">A defense of information
structural realism (Synthese 2009, Vol. 61, No. 2, pp. 219-253)</a><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "times new
roman", times, serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: justify; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(204, 204,
204); display: inline !important; float: none;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Floridi argues that
digital ontology deals with the view that "the ultimate nature
of reality is digital". This is, indeed, as Floridi stresses, an
uncritical pre-kantian view. But what Floridi calls "digital
ontology" is in fact digital metaphysics. Using the term
"ontology" with regard to his own theory, namely "informational
ontology" ("the ultimate nature of reality is structural"),
Floridi is no less metaphysical or pre-kantian and his argument
is self-contradictory.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "times new
roman", times, serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: justify; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(204, 204,
204);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "times new
roman", times, serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: justify; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(204, 204,
204);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: "times new
roman", times, serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: justify; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(204, 204,
204); display: inline !important; float: none;">When I talk
about digital ontology I am taking no position with regard to
the digital as "the ultimate nature of reality". I am just
saying that in the present age, the digital seems to be (at
least it seems to me) the prevalent perspective for
understanding (!) beings in their being. This is an
epistemological (in Heideggerian terms: an "ontological") view,
not a metaphysical (or "ontological" in Floridi's terms) one.
But, indeed, this ontological perspective can become a
metaphysical one. Floridi denies the legitimacy of such a
digital Pythagoreism, and I agree with him in this point. But he
makes the case for a kind of informational Platonism which is no
less metaphysical than the digital one he criticizes. Floridi's
"infosphere" is nothing but a Platonic phantasy.</span><br>
<br>
more at:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.capurro.de/floridi.html">http://www.capurro.de/floridi.html</a><br>
<br>
best<br>
<br>
Rafael<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAEzq2RR9iL0NwNvBHP4X6MCkqoP_eVH-0wQ1Uk=sXM5SH5NXMg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Moises and all,<br>
<br>
Floridi has an excellent chapter in his "philosophy of
information" called "Against digital ontology". It's worth
quoting the two fundamental questions he asks about digital
ontology:<br>
<br>
"a. whether the physical universe might be adequately modelled
digitally and computationally, independently of whether it is
actually digital and computational in itself;<br>
<br>
b. whether the ultimate nature of the physical universe might be
actually digital and computation in itself, independently of how
it can be effectively or adequately modelled." (Floridi,
"Philosophy of Information", p320)<br>
<br>
My point is that this stuff is highly speculative. Of course, it
might be argued that "it from qbit" is fundamentally different
from "it from bit". But is it really? Quantum computers look
rather like parallel processors, don't they? Also the emphasis
on relations rather than atoms (qbits) in the article is
interesting, but it looks like there is still an atomistic logic
behind it. It's the stuff of computer science - even if it's
quantum computer science.<br>
<br>
I might struggle to see the point - even if I'm happy that
physicists are talking about information. If anybody was to
communicate this in a way that helps me see why this matters,
they would probably have to amplify their descriptions - in
effect, add redundancy in their descriptions. In this particular
case, I think that would be very difficult.<br>
<br>
Curiously, in the recent discussion on this list about the
additional layer of information in DNA (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-confirm-a-second-layer-of-information-hiding-in-dna">http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-confirm-a-second-layer-of-information-hiding-in-dna</a>),
I think it would be easier to amplify the descriptions. <br>
<br>
Best wishes,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 5 November 2016 at 11:28, Moisés
André Nisenbaum <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br" target="_blank">moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear
FISers.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I was very
excited with the John’s first message informing that a
group of scientists is
discussing again the role of Information in Physics.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The high impact on
FIS list of John’s post (13 replies from different
persons in 2 days) shows that it is yet an open
discussion. Thank you all for the very interesting
posts :-)</span></p>
<div><br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The works (not
interdisciplinary nor reductionist) of Tom Stonier
(1991), Holger Lyre (1995) and Carl Friedrich Von
Weizsäcker, et. Al (2006) and many discussions on this
list (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/"
target="_blank">http://fis.sciforum.net/fis-<wbr>discussion-sessions/</a>)
are also about this theme. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Scientific
American article is an introduction. So I went to the
source of the project
named “It from Qubit: Simons Collaboration on Quantum
Fields, Gravity, and
Information.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Home page:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.simonsfoundation.org/mathematics-and-physical-science/it-from-qubit-simons-collaboration-on-quantum-fields-gravity-and-information/"
target="_blank">https://www.simonsfoundation.<wbr>org/mathematics-and-physical-<wbr>science/it-from-qubit-simons-<wbr>collaboration-on-quantum-<wbr>fields-gravity-and-<wbr>information/</a><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Overview:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.stanford.edu/%7Ephayden/simons/overview.pdf"
target="_blank">http://web.stanford.edu/~<wbr>phayden/simons/overview.pdf</a><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Project:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.stanford.edu/%7Ephayden/simons/simons-proposal.pdf"
target="_blank">http://web.stanford.edu/~<wbr>phayden/simons/simons-<wbr>proposal.pdf</a><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Mainly, it
is an Interdisciplinary Resarch group trying to
approximate Fundamental Physics
from Quantum Information, so I think that it is a good
and necessary
initiative. Imagine what we can “extract” from this
two fields working
together!<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">They have
several projects, but I think that the final goals is
not as important as the
revelations of the processes. We should look at the
projects. Maybe we
can find that, after all, the title “it from qbit” was
only a “marketing” (bad?) choice :-)<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kind regards,<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Moisés<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">References:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">STONIER, T.
<b>Towards a new theory of information</b>. Journal of
Information Science. <b>Anais</b>...1991Disponível
em: </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.scopus.com/inward/record.url?eid=2-s2.0-0026386595&partnerID=tZOtx3y1"
target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">http://www.scopus.com/inward/<wbr>record.url?eid=2-s2.0-<wbr>0026386595&partnerID=tZOtx3y1</span></a><span
lang="EN-US"><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">“Information
science is badly in need of an information theory. The
paper discusses both the
need, and the possibility of developing such a theory
based on the assumption
that information is a basic property of the universe.”<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">LYRE, H.
Quantum theory of Ur-objects as a theory of
information. </span><b>International
Journal of Theoretical Physics</b>, v. 34, n. 8, p.
1541–1552, ago. 1995.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">“The
quantum theory of ur-objects proposed by C. F. von
Weizsäcker has to be
interpreted as a quantum theory of information.”<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">WEIZSÄCKER,
C. F. VON; GÖRNITZ, T.; LYRE, H. <b>The structure of
physics</b>. </span>Dordrecht:
Springer, 2006.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">“the idea
of a quantum theory of binary alternatives (the
so-called ur-theory), a unified
quantum theoretical framework in which spinorial
symmetry groups are considered
to give rise to the structure of space and time.”<span></span></span></p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">2016-11-03 16:52
GMT-02:00 John Collier <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za"
target="_blank">Collierj@ukzn.ac.za</a>></span>:<br>
</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class="">
<div lang="EN-ZA">
<div
class="m_-6842305427728578048gmail-m_-2553233184730113427WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Apparently some
physicists think so.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tangled-up-in-spacetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161102"
target="_blank">https://www.scientificamerican<wbr>.com/article/tangled-up-in-spa<wbr>cetime/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_2016110<wbr>2</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>John Collier</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Emeritus Professor
and Senior Research Associate</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Philosophy,
University of KwaZulu-Natal</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier"
target="_blank">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
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-- <br>
<div class="m_-6842305427728578048gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Moisés André Nisenbaum<br>
Doutorando IBICT/UFRJ. Professor. Msc.<br>
Instituto Federal do Rio de Janeiro -
IFRJ<br>
Campus Rio de Janeiro<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br"
target="_blank">moises.nisenbaum@ifrj.edu.br</a></div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
Institute of Learning and Teaching</div>
<div>Faculty of Health and Life Sciences</div>
<div>University of Liverpool</div>
<div><br>
Visiting Professor<br>
Far Eastern Federal University, Russia</div>
<div><br>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
Blog: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org">http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org</a>)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa.
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E-Mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rafael@capurro.de">rafael@capurro.de</a>
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