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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Dear Pedro and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>The figure from Weaver in Loet's excellent posting leaves a few aspects outside. The why, the what, the how long, the with whom, and other aspects of the information phenomenon do not enter. By doing that we have streamlined the phenomenon... and have left it ready for applying a highly successful theory, in the technological and in many other realms (linguistics, artif. intelligence, neurodynamics, molec. networks, ecol. networks, applied soc. metrics, etc). Pretty big and impressive, but is it enough? Shouldn't we try to go beyond?<br><br><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>In my opinion, “</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The why, the what, the how long, the with whom, and other aspects …” are subject to substantive theorizing. The type of answers will be very different when studying biological or other systems of reference. But then the information is provided with meaning by these theories and we discuss “meaningful information” as different from Shannon-type information. There will in this case a dimension to the information. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>For example, when particles collide, there is exchange of momenta and energy. The dissipation is then dimensioned as Joule/Kelvin (S = k H). In chemistry one assumes a mass balance and thus a redistribution of atoms over molecules, etc. The dimensionality of interhuman communication is hitherto not specified. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br>I wonder whether a far wider "phenomenology of information" is needed (reminding what Maxine argued months ago about the whole contemplation of our own movement, or Plamen about the "war on cancer"?). If that inquiry is successful we could find for instance that:<br><br><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>This is not successful. It does not lead to a research program, but to “philosophie spontan</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#44546A'>é</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>e des savant” (Althusser) as your comprehensive question for “</span>The why, the what, the how long, the with whom, and other aspects”<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'> illustrates. The hidden program is biologistic:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br>2. Those UNIVERSALS are SPECIES' SPECIFIC.<span style='color:#44546A'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>“ESSENTIAL CORES” are discipline specific!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br>3. Those UNIVERSALS would be organized, wrapped, around an ESSENTIAL CORE. It would consist in the tight ingraining of self-production and communication (almost inseparable, and both information based!). In the human special case, it is the whole advancement of our own lives what propels us to engage in endless communication --about the universals of our own species-- but with the terrific advantage of an open-ended communication system, language.<br><br>4. Those UNIVERSALS would have been streamlined in very different ways and taken as "principles" or starting points for a number of disciplines--remembering the discussion about the four Great Domains of Science. A renewed Information Science should nucleate one of those domains. <br><br><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>“Should” is an expression of uneasiness? In my opinion, the assumption of an origin is problematic: order is not given (ex ante) and then branching, but emerging (ex post) from disorder (entropy). Is “disorder” perhaps a universal? In which specific system? (I would have a provisional answer/ hypothesis; but this is my second penny for this week.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br>Best regards to all, <br>(and particular greetings to the new parties joined for this discussion)<br>--Pedro<br> <br><span style='font-size:18.0pt'><br></span>El 27/06/2016 a las 12:43, Marcus Abundis escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Dear Loet,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> I hoped to reply to your posts sooner as of all the voices on FIS I often sense a general kinship with your views. But I also confess I have difficulty in precisely grasping your views – the reason for my delay.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>>[while Shannon’s] concept of information (uncertainty) <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> is counter-intuitive. It enables us among other things <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> to distinguish between "information" and "meaningful <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> information". <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>• Easily agreed; *how* to distinguish a presumed meaning (or meaningless-ness) then becomes the remaining issue.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> Providing . . . meaning presumes the specification <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> of a system of reference; for example, an observer.< <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>• It is telling for me (in viewing our differences and likenesses) that you suggest an observer. My “system of relating“ accommodates but does not require an observer (okay – observer, defined how?), as shown immediately below.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>>Different[ly] . . . expected information is dimensionless<<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> ("a priori"). <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>• I suggest the act of “expectation“ already infers minimal dimensions – for example, who/what/how is doing the expecting? Thus, in my view, this is not truly a priori. A “readiness“ or a compelling functional need innate to any “system of relating“ has bearing. For example, a single Oxygen atom has a compelling/innate need to react with other elements, just as any agent is compelled to react to “nutrients.“ Both imply dimensional expectations, no? (obviously – of different orders/types).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> In my opinion, a "real theory of meaning" should enable <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> us to specify/measure meaning as redundancy / reduction <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> of uncertainty given . . . I took this further in . . . <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> The Self-Organization of Meaning and the Reflexive . . .<<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>• My weak grasp of the concepts in this paper leads me to think you are actually modeling the “processing of meaning,“ related-to-but-distinct-from “generating meaning“ that I target. I also vaguely recall(?) in an offline exchange I asked you if you saw this paper as presenting a “theory of meaning“ and you answered “No.“ <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>• In your later response to Pedro, I found your citation matrix a interesting example of your thinking, but still too “high-order“ for my reductive-but-meaningful aim. Your matrix (for me) presents an essential complexity of high-order views, but in itself it is too simple to detail *how* a citation is *meaningfully used.* Still, an intriguing concept that might be meaningfully expanded? Perhaps there are more useful details in the additional papers you list, which I have not had a chance to explore.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>• Your last post then reinforces my sense you are actually exploring the processing of meaning, rather than the generation of meaning. Diverse “systems of relating“ you name seem to be “on point“ and <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> can be considered as a semantic domain (Maturana,1978)<<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>But I find this unsatisfying as exactly *what(s)* is being related, and exactly *how* it is being related, does not seem to be covered. It is in precisely naming those “whats“ and “hows“ that true a priori models become possible. For example, a *system of relating* between “a hominid and a rock“ affords certain types of meaning, equally a *system of relating* between “the same rock and an ant“ affords wholly different types of meaning – all in regards to an identical (autonomous) rock.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> the same information is delineated differently and <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> considered from a different perspective <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>arguing for essential subjectivity? This seems to point to my use of delta O and delta S in the video.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>• I am unsure if we are in: radical agreement, radical disagreement, or if we just name subtle differences. . . but I thought I should at least attempt a reply to your posts and see what ensues. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> In my opinion, the task is to specify mechanisms which <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> generate redundancy <<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>This leads me to believe we essentially agree but focus on different levels of operation and complexity. Any thoughts you have to share are appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Marcus<o:p></o:p></p></div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 style='margin-left:.5in;outline:0px;border-spacing:0px'><tr style='height:22.5pt;outline:0px;font-style:inherit'><td width=1 valign=bottom style='width:.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;height:22.5pt;outline:0px;font-style:inherit'></td></tr><tr style='outline:0px;font-style:inherit'><td width=1 valign=bottom style='width:.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;outline:0px;font-style:inherit'></td></tr><tr style='height:15.0pt;outline:0px;font-style:inherit'><td width=1 valign=bottom style='width:.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;height:15.0pt;outline:0px;font-style:inherit'></td></tr></table></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>50009 Zaragoza, Spain<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre></div></body></html>