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<div class="moz-forward-container">-------- Mensaje reenviado
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<td>Re: [Fis] Cancer Cure?</td>
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<td>Tue, 31 May 2016 19:54:05 +0200</td>
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<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">De: </th>
<td>Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com"><plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com></a></td>
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<td>Robert Ulanowicz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu"><ulan@umces.edu></a></td>
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<td>Pedro C. Marijuan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"><pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es></a></td>
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<div>Dear Bob and All,<br>
<br>
</div>
it is a compliment for me to read your notes on the subject.
You don't need to excuse. It is indeed a complex world of
relations. And tt is good that you rmentioned all this again
from your perspective. We do not know how many have entered
the discussion later. Reiterations and questions are always
good and welcome. Well, I was expecting a vigorous
discussion on this subject which approaches its end now. But
it is still better to have one feedback rather than writing
all this on paper of my own without knowing what the
reviewer or the reader would say at the end. I still hope to
hear a few more voices on that. We could take on some of the
other two major groups of diseases mentioned in the opening
session. Bob, I am glad that you mentioned quantum logic. Do
you think we can try using it to express the emergent state
of a disease (in combination or not with heterogeneity afine
SOC) We are not limited to cancer only. In fact I am also
interested to know your opinion on such aspects as
self-similarity or symmetry/asymetry during the development
of a disease throughout all transition phases. These issues
have been often discussed in a different context at FIS. How
about the biosemiotics aspect which I mentioned earlier?
Tell me what do you think could be a promising approach to
tackle a tough health problem. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Is there anybody out there? :-)<br>
<br>
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<div>All the best,<br>
<br>
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<div>Plamen<br>
<br>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 6:54 PM,
Robert E. Ulanowicz <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ulan@umces.edu">ulan@umces.edu</a></a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
class="">> Dear Bob,<br>
><br>
> thank you for your response. What you said in the
core - heterogeneity -<br>
> resonated with the first suggested example I
began this session with: the<br>
> puzzle of registering the heterogeneity of
cancer, both in the<br>
> molecular-biological and histological level, both
in space and time. It<br>
> appears that exactly this elusive property of
matter, liveness, from the<br>
> single cell to entire eco-systems, which implies
intelligence throughout<br>
> all scales (as Brian Ford states) is what we
still cannot in system(s)<br>
> biology put on the feet of statistical mechanics
and classical<br>
> physics.Aren't tumors such intelligent clusters
of heterogeneous cell<br>
> computers interacting within internaly secured
invasive networks that<br>
> escape our medical enigma code breakers placed in
our synthetic drugs and<br>
> radiation devices? Also such undesired life is
not easy to kill. And yet<br>
> cancer cannot win the battle unless our own
internal systems surrender and<br>
> become allies of the invador.<br>
<br>
</span>Dear Plamen,<br>
<br>
To begin, please allow me to apologize for joining the
conversation midway<br>
without having read your earlier postings.<br>
<br>
It's obvious that you also expressed the sense of what I
was saying. There<br>
are about 6 fundamental laws of physics, which allows
for several hundred<br>
combinations among the laws. Meanwhile, most living
systems consist of at<br>
least 40 identifiable constituents, which can interact
on some 10^47<br>
possible ways. It should be no surprise that (many?)
more than one<br>
combination can satisfy any specification of the laws.
So the laws are not<br>
broken; they simply lose their power to *determine* a
unique outcome.<br>
<br>
As you say, sufficiently heterogeneous living system can
usually find a<br>
way around most obstacles in their way.<br>
<span class=""><br>
> And yet, healthy systems have some sort of
regularity, layered structure<br>
> and hierarchies as those we observe in a skin
biopsy sample.Genetic<br>
> mutations do not remain local at the damaged
spot; they are signaled to<br>
> other "mentally weak" cells which are turned into
traitors,also perhaps<br>
> even via non-local induction. Are wandering "bad"
cells and accelerated<br>
> replication the only sources of growing agressive
cancers? Here is perhaps<br>
</span>> where biosemiotics and phenomenology could
help along with creating new*<br>
> heterogeneous* SOC models, as you mentioned. You
are right, the call for<br>
<span class="">> devising a mathematics that can
handle heterogeneous sets,<br>
> vectors,matrices, categories and other sorts of
organisation in biology<br>
> simultateously was already spread by Bob
Root-Bernstein in his opening<br>
> article to our 2012 edition of integral
biomathics (see last link in my<br>
> signature). We do not have such an underpinning
mathematics and its<br>
> related<br>
> computation yet. Therefore we remain still stuck
in the old system<br>
> biological models rooted in physics at best.<br>
<br>
</span>I should have mentioned that SOC can also
possibly apply to heterogeneous<br>
systems. For example, we have plotted the countervailing
properties of<br>
networks -- their efficient performance vs. their
reliability, and we have<br>
found that ecosystems from various habitats all achieve
about the same<br>
balance between these two traits. (See Fig. 7 on p1890
in<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://people.clas.ufl.edu/ulan/files/Dual.pdf"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://people.clas.ufl.edu/ulan/files/Dual.pdf</a>>.)
These metrics do have<br>
heterogeneity built into them. (They are calculated on
n-dimensional<br>
networks -- each node representing a distinct
constituent.) Some have<br>
suggested that the balance point is very near a critical
point. Ergo, SOC<br>
can apply to heterogeneous systems.<br>
<span class=""><br>
> Many of us hope that the right answers to all
this will be given once we<br>
> understand quantum gravitation and master quantum
computation. But I have<br>
> my doubts in such hopes too.<br>
<br>
</span>I have severe doubts about quantum gravity -- at
least quantum in the<br>
sense of Planck. (Quantum logic is another matter, and
may apply to<br>
gravity.) The Planck constant and the gravitational
constant are separated<br>
by some 43 orders of magntude. The engineering rule of
thumb is that<br>
phenomena characterized by dimensionless parameters
greater than 10^5 or<br>
less than 10^(-5) are dynamically independent.<br>
<br>
Quantum computing, on the other hand, might prove quite
helpful in<br>
addressing the combinatorics of heterogeneous systems.
Let us hope.<br>
<span class=""><br>
> The questions I ask are those of an ex product
planner colecting customer<br>
> feedback to devise a new product. Perhaps we can
succeed in doing that<br>
> together. Thank you for this.<br>
<br>
</span>So then you are quite aware of the combinatorics
and surprises connected<br>
with dialogs! It's a complicated world!<br>
<br>
Thank you for your contributions to FIS, and I apologize
again for not<br>
having read your earlier postings.<br>
<br>
> All the best,<br>
><br>
> Plamen<br>
<br>
Peace!<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
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