<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Dear Lou,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Thanks for the
invitation to elaborate on the concept of quantum and how it connects to
Wittgenstein’s taboo words and information.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">We may have problems
understanding the concept of a quantum because the idea appears to be
non-expressible by rational, logical speech. The grammar of logical sentences
creates constraints on what can be said intelligibly (as Wittgenstein has
pointed out). We can discuss the present King of France (even if there is no
such thing there, in Russell’s example) because the grammar allows us to speak
of places and things. The essence of rational speech is that it is consistent.
We cannot speak exactly of things that may or may not be there, that may or not
may have properties. Specifically, we cannot speak of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">unique, individual </i>concepts, which we cannot contrast to such other
concepts which we know. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Let me show you what
the natural numbers offer as a possible definition of such a concept that is
transcending some logical categories. </span></p>
<p class="" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Preparation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">We do an accounting
exercise on some numbers. (For some numerical reasons, it is best to speak of a
collection that has 16 distinguishing categories on two kinds of objects: that
is, we have <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(a,b) </i>appearing as
tuplets <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(1,1), (1,2), (2,2), (1,3),
(2,3), (3,3), (1,4), (2,4), …, (16,16),</i> that is altogether 136 elements of
a set.) These we sort on some aspects. Then we re-sort them into a different
sorting order, based on some different aspects of <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">(a,b). </i><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>What we register is
the properties of the cycle each element in included in during a reorder. </span></p>
<p class="" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Action</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">We pick 1,2,3,… of the
elements and discuss if, and if yes, in which and how many altogether, cycles these
elements can be included while contemporaneous. Contemporaneous means “free of
logical contradictions, is the case, consistent, assigning a place to an
element” in spoken language, in the deictic language of numbers and tables it
means that there is an empty cell in a White or True Table we can write this
element into. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">We also mark in a
separate Dark, Black or Negative Table (like a Bad Bank or a No-Fly List) all
those cycles that are presently not playable, because of the element(s) being
included in a cycle that cannot run concurrently with those that are in the
Black Table.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">For the sake of
accounting completeness, we also create a Grey Table, our Basic Table of
Ignorance, wherein are initially included all cycles, wherefrom we move cycles
either to the Possible or to the Not Possible Tables. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">As we pick an element,
we assign it a place. At first, it is irrelevant, which order we assume to be
the case. As we progress, the presence of elements will have generated a series
of facts and/or assumptions which restrict the ways of either how we can place
the element or how we can choose the order we wish to maintain. One may be
reminded of variants of Go, Sudoku or the like.</span></p>
<p class="" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">c)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Evaluation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">We can formulate our
observations in an assertive, but as well also in a negating way of describing
the same state of the word. We can observe that the element <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">e </i>is on place <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">p </i>in order <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">o</i>, but as well
we can observe that this deviates from order <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">not-o</i>, where either element e would be on place <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">not-p</i>, or on place <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">p</i> would be an element <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">not-e</i>.
As at least elements <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">e</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">not-e</i> are numerically comparable (we
know the extent of difference between <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(3,4)</i>
and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(5,7)</i>), so there is hope that
this and the linear distance differences between places <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">p</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">not-p</i> allow
constructing a measure for the distance between orders <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal">o</i> and <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">not-o</i>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">The contents of the
Grey and Dark Tables are as descriptive of what we have done as the contents of
our Positive Registry of Actions. We not only do talk about what Wittgenstein
has said one should better leave alone, but we split the background to that
what we talk about, that what is the case, into one part that is definitely
false and one part, that which is simply unknown. That what Wittgenstein has
delineated as the background to rational speech is now – thanks to computers –
accessible. We propose to use the name “information” for a logical statement
which details facts that are not the case, belong to the background in
Wittgenstein’s sense. Information is a description of the background to that
what is the case.</span></p>
<p class="" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">d)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Unit of
what</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Now we arrive at what
an accountant would term the minimal accounting unit. The concept may well be
called a quantum by people outside the accounting world. In the tables, one may
point to an increased degree of exactitude which one arrives at having picked
the <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">i-th </i>element. What this minimal
degree of increased exactitude refers to exactly, appears not that easy to put
in spoken words of a rational language. We do not restrict its meaning to what
is the case, but also may refer to something that is now more not the case than
before, and specifically we cannot say whether this increased exactitude refers
to a linear, spatial or material or temporal (mis-) match. The general idea of
a match (or its mirror experience, the mis-match) or a Zero (in case we refer
to the contents of the Gray Table) may well be what is targeted by speakers who
use the word quantum. That the concept is not easy to catch appears to root in
its referring to a mixture of observations that refer to consistent, but also
to non-consistent appearances.</span></p>
<p class="" style="text-indent: -18pt;"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">e)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Vectors,
agglomerations and directions <span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">By using the standard
reorders, one can build two Euclid spaces. These can be merged into one Newton
space with the axes <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(a+b), (a-2b), (b-2a)
</i>for <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">z, y, x. </i>The cycles create a
web which is very much directed and oriented. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Within this web,
spatial geometry and topology is of paramount importance. The picture is,
however, overlaid by two additional planes, created by standard reorders, that
transcend the spaces created by the rectangular axes of standard reorders. It
may be a wild guess to suggest the words “electro-magnetic” to be used while
describing the effects these two planes cause. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Influenced or not by
the two extra planes, the general tendency of cycles in space is to attribute
density unevenly along their paths. There appear agglomeration points in space,
where the probability that on this spot material exists continuously
contemporaneously is higher than elsewhere. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">These assemblies can
be visualised as traffic jams that appear out of the general density of
material on paths and of the non-uniform speeds of the vehicles that are in
convoys. There appear a few hundred of such agglomeration types, which we call <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">logical archetypes. </i>They are referred to
usually as chemical elements and their isotopes. Some of them cannot exist
contemporaneously, but some do. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">The coexistence of
some logical archetypes imposes constraints on which other entities may be in
existence and how these share the space. This is a Lego/Tetris type
arrangement, very much in molecular geometry.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">I sincerely believe
that the tautomat, the model of which has been presented to FIS during the last
few years, here reintroduced as a skeleton on which one may demonstrate
concepts, is a powerful and versatile tool to discuss questions relating to
order in Nature, and offers a deictic definition for a concept of a minimal
unit. The minimal unit can also have the form of a negation of a logical state
of affairs. This usage of the concept of the minimal unit, namely to refer to
something that is not the case, is what was meant under “quantum information”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Karl</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> </span></p>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2016-03-24 20:37 GMT+01:00 Louis H Kauffman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kauffman@uic.edu" target="_blank">kauffman@uic.edu</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span class=""><br><hr><div><b>From: </b> Louis H Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
</div><div><b>Date: </b>Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:56:06 -0500</div><div><b>To: </b>fis<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></div><div><b>Cc: </b>Pedro C. Marijuan<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] SYMMETRY & _ On BioLogic</div><div><br></div>Dear Plamen,<div>It is possible. We are looking here at Pivar and his colleagues working with the possibilities of materials. It is similar to how people in origami have explored the possibilities of producing forms by folding paper.</div></span><div><span class="">If we can make hypotheses on how topological geometric forms should develop in a way that is resonant with biology, then we can explore these in a systematic way. An example is indeed the use of knot theory to study DNA recombination. We have a partial model of the topological aspect of recombination, and we can explore this by using rope models and the abstract apparatus of corresponding topological models. Something similar might be possible for developmental biology. <br></span><div><div class="h5"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 17, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr">Dear Lou and Colleagues,<div><br></div><div>yes, I agree: an artistic approach can be very fruitful. This is like what Stuart Kauffman says about speaking with metaphors. At some point our mathematical descriptive tools do not have sufficient expressional power to grasp more global general insights and we reach out to the domains of narration, music and visualisation for help. And this is the point where this effort of reflection upon a subject begins to generate and develop new expressional forms of mathematics (logics, algebras, geometries). I think that you and Ralph Abraham noted this in your contributions about the mystic of mathematics in the 2015 JPBMB special issue. Therefore I ask here, if we all feel that there is some grain of imaginative truth in the works of Pivar and team, what piece of mathematics does it needs to become a serious theory. Spencer-Brown did also have similar flashy insights in the beginning, but he needed 20+ years to abstract them into a substantial book and theory. This is what also other mathematicians do. They are providing complete works. Modern artists and futurists are shooting fast and then moving to the next “inspiration”, often without “marketing” the earlier idea. And then they are often disappointed that they were not understood by their contemporaries. The lack of They are often arrogant and do not care about the opinion of others like we do in our FIS forum. But they often have some “oracle” messages. So, my question to you and the others here is: Is there a way that we, scientists, can build a solid theory on the base of others' artistic insights? Do you think you can help here as an expert in topology and logic to fill the formalisation gaps in Pivar’s approach and develop something foundational. All this would take time and I am not sure if such artists like Pivar would be ready to participate a scientific-humanitarian discourse, because we know that most of these talents as extremely egocentric and ignorant and we cannot change this. What do you think?</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Plamen</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Louis H Kauffman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank">loukau@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Plamen,<div>I do not know why Gel-Mann supported this. It is interesting to me anyway. It is primarily an artistic endeavor but is based on some ideas of visual development of complex forms from simpler forms.</div><div>Some of these stories may have a grain of truth. The sort of thing I do and others do is much more conservative (even what D’Arcy Thompson did is much more conservative). We look for simple patterns that definitely seem to occur in complex situations and we abstract them and work with them on their own grounds, and with regard to how these patterns work in a complex system. An artistic approach can be very fruitful.</div><div>Best,</div><div>Lou</div><div><div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 16, 2016, at 9:43 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr">Dear Lou, Pedro and Colleagues,<div><br></div><div>I have another somewhat provoking question about the "constructive" role of topology in morphogenesis. What do you think about the somewhat artistic, but scientifically VERY controversial theory about the origin and development of life forms based on physical forces from classical mechanics and
topology only, thus ignoring all of genetics, Darwinism and Creationism:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.ilasol.org.il/ILASOL/uploads/files/Pivar_ILASOL-2010.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ilasol.org.il/ILASOL/uploads/files/Pivar_ILASOL-2010.pdf</a></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div>What part of this can be regarded as science at all, and If there is something missing what is it? Why did a person like Murray Gel-Mann support this?<br><br><br>Best<br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Plamen<br><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>____________________________________________________________</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Louis, a very simple question: in your model of self-replication, when you enter the environment, could it mean something else than just providing the raw stuff for reproduction? It would be great if related to successive cycles one could include emergent topological (say geometrical-mechanical) properties. For instance, once you have divided three times the initial egg-cell, you would encounter three symmetry axes that would co-define the future axes of animal development--dorsal/ventral, anterior/posterior, lateral/medial. Another matter would be about the timing of complexity, whether mere repetition of cycles could generate or not sufficient functional diversity such as Plamen was inquiring in the case of molecular clocks (nope in my opinion). best--Pedro<div><div><br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<br>
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)<br>
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<br>
50009 Zaragoza, Spain<br>
Tfno. <a href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" value="+34976713526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
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