<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Lou,<br><br></div>thank you for your response.<br><br><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Louis H Kauffman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank">loukau@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Plamen,<div>I suspect that what you would like to know about ‘distinction logic’ is how distinctions arise in natural systems.</div><div>I would like to know more about this also!</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I suspect Spencer-Brown has beeen working on this too.<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>One can imagine that complex interactions can under appropriate circumstances lead to dynamic closed loops of interaction and even concomitant spatial distinctions (in the eye of an observer of the system). Such patterns would be the subject of a distinction logic or a logic of distinctions for that observer. There is the related question of how observers can arise but this is looped around with the first question. The two questions are linked with one another and one can imagine that systems that produce partly stable looping processes can begin to create naming and reference.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This sounds intriguing. Does not this go into biosemiotics?<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div> If they can do that, they will not be far from self-reference. Exactly how this could be done is a mystery. But that it happens is evident in the biological world.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So we come back to the old Searle thesis about self-reference?<br><br><a href="https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/ijn_00089222/document">https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/ijn_00089222/document</a><br><br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>On the other hand you may be interested in the simplicities of the calculus of indications or variations of that. I would be happy to talk about that. When I do it is at the level of human observer and our mutual abilities to distinguish, agree and disagree.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I see. This is the level of the scientist. <br>This should be doable. Self-referential microbes are out of question for the moment.<br><br></div><div>Thanks!<br><br></div><div>Plamen<br><br></div><div><br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Best,</div><div>Lou</div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5"><div>On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:10 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><div><div><div class="h5"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Dear Lou, Pedro and Colleagues,<br></div><div><span lang="EN-US"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I think that Pedro made an interesting
comment suggesting an extension of Lou’s original model that another sort of recursion can be
injected from the outside world in terms of multiple nested loops of action. That
the species (r)evolution was accelerated and “harmonized” via “cross-cultural”
exchange of DNA segments invoked by viruses is a known fact now. It also changes to some extent
the meaning of infection diseases from something “bad” to fight into a sort of
necessary symbiosis for the co-evolution of the system Earth/Cosmos. So, it makes sense to
think and ask whether by creating more and more artificial drugs and vaccines against
infections we do not intervene in the mutation of viruses in a way that cannot
be regarded as response-able, because of also being too reductionistic with
respect to what are the consequences for both ourselves and the BIG unknown ecosystem
outside our bodies. I am curious to know what do you think about the option to try
integrating Turing Oracle Machines in such extended recursive models of living
systems, which integrate viruses in the evolutionary loop. This idea was
suggested in the course of our integral biomathics discussions in the past. In other words, what do you
think about linking a formal biomathematical representation and a
biocomputation responsive mechanism in maintaining an autonomous biologic? Perhaps we need multiple layers of abstraction, i.e. multiple biologics, and not only the bimolecular and cellular ones. And also, do you think there are other mechanisms for information transfer, e.g. in prokaryotic cells and archaea, also addressing the principles of circularity and recursion?</span></p><div><span lang="EN-US"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Another question I have is ignited from
Pedro’s reflections upon your circularity model for reproduction and directed
to both of you. If biological “clocks” such as the circadian rhythm are the
result of an evolutionary impressed repetition of action, are they the carrier
or the carried, or perhaps both, and if so how does this come into being? I recall a paper by Koichiro Matsuno in the former 2013 IB special issue “Making Biological Theory More Down to Earth” which said something interesting about the role of cycles in maintaining identity and life, also from the phenomenological perspective concerning the distinction between self and outer world. Here is where I’d like to learn more about the distinction logic like Pedro.</span></p><div><span lang="EN-US"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thank you.</span></p><div><span lang="EN-US"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">All the best.</span></p><div><span lang="EN-US"> </span><br></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Plamen</span></p>
<div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><div>____________________________________________________________</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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