<div dir="ltr">Regarding Stanley Salthe's Point<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">So evolutionary extinction is also not a phenomenon.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">In the current case of human environmental destruction in might be the case</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">that a person could observe the last of a kind of bird flying by, but (s)he</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">would not actually SEE its death.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I give you two counter examples - though they are clearly special cases. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">1. The extinction of a species of flightless wren that inhabited a single island free of predators some miles off the coast of Scotland. When a lighthouse was built on the island in the 18th century, the entire species was wiped out by the lighthouse keeper's cat which would bring the prey to its owner. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">2. The Dodo was wiped out by being shot by European visitors to Mauritius, the is</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">land on which it lived. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Both these extinctions were 'observed' by the humans concerned. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Does this make them phenomena?</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The killing of tigers and rhinos by poachers in India fall in the same category no doubt.</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 25 February 2016 at 01:16, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. _ Fwd: Response to Salthe (Stanley N Salthe)<br>
2. Re: Response to Salthe (Steven Ericsson-Zenith)<br>
3. Re: Response to Salthe (Steven Ericsson-Zenith)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:04:02 -0500<br>
From: Stanley N Salthe <<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>><br>
To: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: [Fis] _ Fwd: Response to Salthe<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Stanley N Salthe <<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>><br>
Date: Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 9:55 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Response to Salthe<br>
To: Maxine Sheets-Johnstone <<a href="mailto:msj@uoregon.edu">msj@uoregon.edu</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
Here I respond to Maxine:<br>
<br>
M: Theories are based on first-person observations. Observations are<br>
first-person real-life, real-time experiences and are duly recorded in<br>
support of theory. Descent with modification was a theory that Darwin put<br>
forth on the basis of his observations that had to do with morphology, but<br>
not only with morphology. See, for example, his last book on worms and the<br>
intelligence of worms; see also his third book devoted to emotions.<br>
<br>
S: Yes, nice examples. But my point here is that there can be no First<br>
Person observation of an evolutionary origin. Such was denied hotly in the<br>
?80?s by phylogenetic systematicists (taxonomists) regarding observations<br>
of fossils. Such origins (maybe ALL origins?) are designations, not<br>
phenomena.<br>
<br>
<br>
M: I am unaware of Darwin?s denying a concern with origins and would<br>
appreciate knowing more about his denial by way of a reference.<br>
<br>
S: In the Origin of Species, Darwin says in a couple of place?usually<br>
by-the-by?that he is not concerned with the origin of life.<br>
<br>
1. ?How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more<br>
than how life itself fir originated? (p. 187 of first edition).<br>
<br>
2. ?I must premise, that I have nothing to do with the origin of the<br>
primary mental powers, any more than I have with that of life itself? (p.<br>
207).<br>
<br>
There is a comparable passage to the one on 207 in the manuscript that<br>
Darwin was working on, before he condensed it into the Origin. So in the<br>
Stauffer edition (Darwin?s Natural Selection): ?I hope that it is hardly<br>
necessary for me to premise that here we are no more concerned with the<br>
first origin of the senses & the various faculties of the mind, than we are<br>
with the first origin of life.? (p. 467)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
M: I know that what he did not deny was ?[t]hat many and grave objections<br>
may be advanced against the theory of descent with modification through<br>
natural selection? (*Origin of Species, *p. 435). Clearly, ?descent with<br>
modification? has to do not just with morphology but with history. History<br>
has to do with timelines, and in this instance with origins and extinctions.<br>
<br>
S: Extinctions are conceptually clean cuts, like origins. in actuality<br>
the most recent positive find of a kind in the fossil record is held to<br>
mark its extinction. So evolutionary extinction is also not a phenomenon.<br>
In the current case of human environmental destruction in might be the case<br>
that a person could observe the last of a kind of bird flying by, but (s)he<br>
would not actually SEE its death.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
M: I would add that because ?descent with modification? involves a history<br>
and not just a morphological comparison as in your human hand and chicken<br>
foot example, the phrase is actually pertinent to the current discussion in<br>
evolutionary biology as to how single-celled organisms gave rise to<br>
multi-celled organisms. If, as is currently suggested, the way a protein<br>
wiggles can result in a mutation so that its function in turn changes, then<br>
?modifications? can determine origins, in this instance, the origin of<br>
multi-celled over single-celled organisms.<br>
<br>
S: In the stream of changes, we pick out certain ones to mark as<br>
?origins?. Origin is a determination of sufficient difference to mark with<br>
a category. In evolutionary biology a new species is held to arise when<br>
successful inter-reproduction fails even if no observational evidence can<br>
be adduced as to what is manifestly different between the two. In taxonomy<br>
this would not be able to mark different species. As well, there are<br>
intermediates between single- and multi-cellulars, as in kinds of bacterial<br>
biofilms.<br>
<br>
<br>
M: Again, I don?t know where Darwin discredited his ?origin? of species<br>
<br>
S: I did not mean to suggest such an outrageous thing! See above.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
M: and I would greatly appreciate knowing where, but his use of the term in<br>
biology doesn?t necessarily mean a big bang moment. Descent with<br>
modification means, as you say, a ?change of existing forms,? and such<br>
changes via natural selection equal in the passage of time the origin of<br>
new species.<br>
<br>
S: So we can assert, even without ever being able to say exactly<br>
where/when that was because it is technically unobservable, therefore<br>
non-phenomenal. But it doesn?t matter as long as we can point to<br>
sufficient differences.<br>
<br>
<br>
M: As to your question of how a phenomenologist could view movement in<br>
relation to living forms that do not move, I would answer first that there<br>
is a new science focused on plant neurobiology in which not just plant<br>
growth but plant movement is recognized. I would also add with respect to<br>
your mentioning that ?Plants move slowly by growth? that I would definitely<br>
align Aristotle?s thinking with phenomenology, namely, his recognition of<br>
three primary kinetic modes: change, movement, and growth, and his highly<br>
relevant estimation of Nature: ??Nature is a principle of motion and<br>
change. . . . We must therefore see that we understand what motion is; for<br>
if it were unknown, nature too would be unknown.? (It might be of interest<br>
to note that in a letter to William Ogle, who had translated Aristotle?s *Parts<br>
of Animals* and sent Darwin a copy, Darwin wrote, ?Linnaeus and Cuvier<br>
have been my two gods, though in very different ways, but they were mere<br>
school-boys to old Aristotle.?) Finally, it is relevant to point out that<br>
responsivity is a well-recognized biological characteristic of life forms.<br>
Even plants respond, and not some not just to light, but to plants in their<br>
immediate surrounds. Husserl?s identification and description of the<br>
perceptual-cognitional disposition of animate organisms in terms of<br>
?receptivity? and ?turning toward? is complementary to the biological<br>
character of responsivity.<br>
<br>
S: Yes. My question remains, inasmuch as discussions of phenomenology<br>
seem always (? OK frequently) to refer to manifest motion in human time<br>
scale. If we start looking as slower or more minute motions (both as in<br>
plants) I would understand that we are now doing science inasmuch as we now<br>
need the support of machinery to go beyond what can be manifest to us at<br>
the scale of our passing moments.<br>
<br>
Then, I can?t resist citing my favorite phenomenological declaration, by<br>
Sartre, ?Snow IS white, wet and cold.?<br>
<br>
STAN<br>
<br>
Maxine<br>
<br>
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Maxine Sheets-Johnstone <<a href="mailto:msj@uoregon.edu">msj@uoregon.edu</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Response to Salthe and Marijuan<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 11:31:24 -0800<br>
From: Steven Ericsson-Zenith <<a href="mailto:steven@iase.us">steven@iase.us</a>><br>
To: Maxine Sheets-Johnstone <<a href="mailto:msj@uoregon.edu">msj@uoregon.edu</a>>, Foundations of<br>
Information Science of Information Science Information Information<br>
Science <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Response to Salthe<br>
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<br>
Darwin's observations were challenged by the American geologist Clarence<br>
King in his "Catastrophe and Evolution" (King 1877), an argument much<br>
admired and supported by Charles Peirce. He argues that it is not natural<br>
selection by incremental mutation, while indubitable in some minor cases,<br>
but the catastrophic evolutionary pressure that produces the significant<br>
diversity of species.<br>
<br>
Steven<br>
<br>
?<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 11:46:23 -0800<br>
From: Steven Ericsson-Zenith <<a href="mailto:steven@iase.us">steven@iase.us</a>><br>
To: Foundations of Information Science of Information Science<br>
Information Information Science <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Cc: Maxine Sheets-Johnstone <<a href="mailto:msj@uoregon.edu">msj@uoregon.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Response to Salthe<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAAyxA7spfcOgYt5TAfpjPhxu3rS-rbiAac7oXpdxMqaXTQZxMg@mail.gmail.com">CAAyxA7spfcOgYt5TAfpjPhxu3rS-rbiAac7oXpdxMqaXTQZxMg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
For reference you can find a copy of Clarence King's "Catastrophe And<br>
Evolution" in the folder "King" here:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-c2CVg9ZQsAY2NZcU1mNGVrbFU/view?usp=sharing" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-c2CVg9ZQsAY2NZcU1mNGVrbFU/view?usp=sharing</a><br>
<br>
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <<a href="mailto:steven@iase.us">steven@iase.us</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Darwin's observations were challenged by the American geologist Clarence<br>
> King in his "Catastrophe and Evolution" (King 1877), an argument much<br>
> admired and supported by Charles Peirce. He argues that it is not natural<br>
> selection by incremental mutation, while indubitable in some minor cases,<br>
> but the catastrophic evolutionary pressure that produces the significant<br>
> diversity of species.<br>
><br>
> Steven<br>
><br>
> ?<br>
><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse">Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"> (M.I.T.)<br>Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,<br>
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