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<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA" lang=EN-CA><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Dear Folks,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA" lang=EN-CA><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA" lang=EN-CA><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>I return following absence due to travel to
Bruno’s interesting note of February 3. I appreciate the opportunity it provides
for discussion and comparison of two very different approaches as to what is
important in the Foundations of Information Science. The A sections below are my
understandings of Bruno and the B’s my position. Direct quotes from Bruno are so
indicated.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA" lang=EN-CA><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA" lang=EN-CA><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>1. A. Whatever ‘was’ present ‘when’ there
was something rather than nothing, natural numbers = Shannon information could
be assigned to ‘it’, and the generation of interpretations of that information
by putative universal Turing machines ‘became’
possible.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA" lang=EN-CA><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA" lang=EN-CA><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>B. If this can be taken to mean that
information and matter-energy are not identical but emerged together from some
unknown substrate I have no problem.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica; COLOR: blue; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"
lang=EN-CA><o:p><FONT size=3> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">2. A. One can
extend the putative operations of the Turing machines to the numerical aspects
of natural phenomena, which include the machines themselves, and further ascribe
their inability to operate in certain areas as a putative cognition. This is
‘mathematical reality’.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT
size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">B. We may, as an
exercise which reminds one of the science-fiction of Stanislas Lem, ascribe a
degree of self-reference to the operations we are
observing.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT
size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">3. A. “None of the
internal logics of the universal machine is classical logic. It oscillates
between intuitionist logic and quantum logic, with some intuitionist quantum
logic and quantum intuitionist logic.” In all intuitionist logics, the Axiom of
absolute Non-Contradiction is retained although that of the Excluded Middle is
weakened. <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">B. Such
non-classical logics are fine for the universal machines as defined, but they
remain propositional logics. In my non-propositional logic in and of
non-arithmetical reality, key Axioms are of Conditional Contradiction and the
Included Middle. No intuitionist logics can be applied to real, contradictorial
and emergent processes in the thermodynamic world.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT
size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">4. B I accept the
correction that computers work according to data, etc. and only interpret like
algorithms.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT
size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">5. A. A
mechanistic view predicts empirical structures for universal machine
‘experiences’ = operations. “If we are not machines, this provides the tool to
measure the degree of (local) non-computationalism. In that case I would bet we
are in a (physical, in the computationalist sense described above)
simulation.”<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">B. SINCE we are
not machines, I am not sure that local non-computability can be measured this
way but it is a fair question. However, SINCE we are not machines, I do not see
the need for calling our existence a
simulation!<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">We thus have
available two sets of tools, one for reality and one for mathematical reality.
The key would seem to me to make sure they are used in their proper respective
informational domains.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Best,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Joseph<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=marchal@ulb.ac.be href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be">Bruno Marchal</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">Joseph Brenner</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 02, 2016 11:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Fw: Information
Conservation in black holes</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Dear Joseph,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 30 Jan 2016, at 19:31, Joseph Brenner wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV lang=EN-CA bgcolor="#ffffff" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dear John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Sorry you have been ill.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I agree fully with your statement:<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><FONT color=#333333
face=Calibri>All of these explanations, and even stating the problem,
require information notions, not just energy as in classical
physics.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial>What I object to are statements
or implications that information, whether in boundaries or not, is
ontologically prior to and/or independent of energy.
</FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I beg to differ on this. I consider Shannon information as given freely
by the numeration of natural numbers in base two or higher, or sequence of
them.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The interesting things is not information/number, but the interpretation
of such information, and this can be defined at first by what the universal
machines do when given such information/number.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV lang=EN-CA bgcolor="#ffffff" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial>This is how the positions of
people like Lloyd and Tegmark come out, giving 'computation' an agential,
anthropomorphically flavored role at the ground of the
universe.</FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Lloyd and Tegmark seem not really aware of the importance of the
discovery of the universal machine, by Emil Post, Alan Turing, Alonzo Church,
and some others. That is mainly a discovery in arithmetic, as a very weak
segment of arithmetic is already Turing universal, and so emulate all Turing
universal system.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>This is not anthropomorphically flavored, it is Turing-machine, or
universal number-morphically flavored. A concept definable in elementary
arithmetic. That concept generalizes both human, bacteria, and the physical
computer.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It is also a theorem of arithmetic, accessible to the universal machine
themselves, and once they "believe" in enough induction axiom, they get the
cognitive ability to deduce their own limitation, and to begin to measure the
gap between provable and true. A gap which entails many modal nuances in the
ways the machine can refer to itself, and what she can prove and expect, and
hope or fear with respect to some universal goal (like "help yourself").</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV lang=EN-CA bgcolor="#ffffff" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial>The establishment by Wu Kun and
others of information as a<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>category</EM>implies separation
only in classical logic and category theory, which are just as limiting as
the classical physics John refers to.</FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Classical logic is the simplest logic, and so the more polite to use to
describe the other logics. </DIV>
<DIV>None of the internal logics of the universal machine is classical logic.
It oscillates between intuitionist logic and quantum logic, with some
intuitionist quantum logic and quantum intuitionist logic.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV lang=EN-CA bgcolor="#ffffff" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial>A basic problem is the inability
of people to keep in mind the operation of two aspects of phenomena,
cooperative and antagonistic, at the same time.
</FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I can agree with this. My favorite exemple is that intelligence is needed
to develop competence, but competence has a negative feedback on
intelligence.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV lang=EN-CA bgcolor="#ffffff" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial>Computers work according to
algorithms. </FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Not really. They work according to data, number, information, that they
interpret at some level like an algorithm, or like data. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV lang=EN-CA bgcolor="#ffffff" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial>The ground of the universe, in my
view, is in the tension, not the separation, between being and non-being,
and no algorithm can handle that (now who is being
anthropomorphic?!)</FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Tegmark and Lloyd miss that elementary arithmetic is Turing complete. So
we don't know really if there is a physical universe. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We know only that there is an infinitely complex reality of all
computations, in arithmetic. Complex, as most relations between form and
function are not algorithmically decidable.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Yet, the self-reference ability of the universal machine suggests to
define the physical reality by what makes some number dream stable and
sharable, and apparently it is not much more than self-referential correctness
and consistency.</DIV>
<DIV>The (full) arithmetical reality, the one which contains all prime numbers
and "can decide" the Riemann hypothesis, is also full of relative number
experience/dream, some stable and sharable. In a testable way, at least for
precise version like classical computationalism.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Mechanism predicts the multi-verse apparent empiric structure by a more
general multi-experiences structure. But it is not human experience, it is the
universal machine experience.</DIV>
<DIV>If we are not machine, this provides the tool to measure the degree of
(local) non-computationalism. In that case I would bet we are in a (physical,
in the computationalist sense described above) simulation.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bruno</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV lang=EN-CA bgcolor="#ffffff" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial"><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za
href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A></DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A></DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Saturday,
January 30, 2016 4:58 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[Fis]
Information Conservation in black holes</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">List,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Sorry
I haven’t been able to respond to the interesting remarks on my last post,
but it took a while to digest them, and my current health concerns take up a
lot of my time, so I haven’t had time to come up with responses that are
properly thought out.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
the meantime, here is an interesting Nature news report about Hawking’s
(and<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51); background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial">Strominger’s)<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>recent proposal for how
information can be preserved in black holes (which his 1976 paper set up as
a problem for the laws of physics, which imply information conservation at
the most basic level. The solution involves a way empty space can carry
information in QM via “soft particles”. The answer is apparently not
completely worked out as yet, and there are critics.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="http://www.nature.com/news/hawking-s-latest-black-hole-paper-splits-physicists-1.19236?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20160128&spMailingID=50572206&spUserID=MTc2NjY1MTQ2NQS2&spJobID=843774519&spReportId=ODQzNzc0NTE5S0">http://www.nature.com/news/hawking-s-latest-black-hole-paper-splits-physicists-1.19236?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20160128&spMailingID=50572206&spUserID=MTc2NjY1MTQ2NQS2&spJobID=843774519&spReportId=ODQzNzc0NTE5S0</A><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Seth
Lloyd described a different possible explanation in his book<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" title=""
href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Programming_the_Universe">Programming the
Universe: A Quantum Computer Scientist Takes On the Cosmos</A></I>, <A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" title=""
href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Alfred_A._Knopf">Knopf</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>(2000) that involves taking into
consideration the information in boundaries, which I found plausible, since
the information preservation in physics follows from consideration of basic
laws together with the constraints of boundary conditions, neither
alone.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Perhaps
the two approaches are not really distinct. They may eventually cast light
on each other. For the time being the Hawking/<SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51); background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial">Strominger
proposal also looks like it can solve the “firewall” problem as well, which
has the Black Hole boundary being very hot (again, contrary to physical
expectations), because information can be transferred into radiation instead
of energy, so the information transfer doesn’t require a high temperature at
the black hole boundary, unlike other forms of radiation production.
All of these explanations, and even stating the problem, require
information notions, not just energy as in classical
physics.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN>John
Collier<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN>Professor
Emeritus and Senior Research Associate<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN>University
of KwaZulu-Natal<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV>
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