<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Joseph,<div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 30 Jan 2016, at 19:31, Joseph Brenner wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear John,</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Sorry you have been ill.</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">I agree fully with your statement:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font face="Calibri" color="#333333">All of these explanations, and even stating the problem, require information notions, not just energy as in classical physics.</font></font></div><div><font face="Calibri" color="#333333" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2">What I object to are statements or implications that information, whether in boundaries or not, is ontologically prior to and/or independent of energy. </font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I beg to differ on this. I consider Shannon information as given freely by the numeration of natural numbers in base two or higher, or sequence of them.</div><div><br></div><div>The interesting things is not information/number, but the interpretation of such information, and this can be defined at first by what the universal machines do when given such information/number.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2">This is how the positions of people like Lloyd and Tegmark come out, giving 'computation' an agential, anthropomorphically flavored role at the ground of the universe.</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Lloyd and Tegmark seem not really aware of the importance of the discovery of the universal machine, by Emil Post, Alan Turing, Alonzo Church, and some others. That is mainly a discovery in arithmetic, as a very weak segment of arithmetic is already Turing universal, and so emulate all Turing universal system.</div><div><br></div><div>This is not anthropomorphically flavored, it is Turing-machine, or universal number-morphically flavored. A concept definable in elementary arithmetic. That concept generalizes both human, bacteria, and the physical computer.</div><div><br></div><div>It is also a theorem of arithmetic, accessible to the universal machine themselves, and once they "believe" in enough induction axiom, they get the cognitive ability to deduce their own limitation, and to begin to measure the gap between provable and true. A gap which entails many modal nuances in the ways the machine can refer to itself, and what she can prove and expect, and hope or fear with respect to some universal goal (like "help yourself").</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2"> The establishment by Wu Kun and others of information as a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><em>category</em>implies separation only in classical logic and category theory, which are just as limiting as the classical physics John refers to.</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Classical logic is the simplest logic, and so the more polite to use to describe the other logics. </div><div>None of the internal logics of the universal machine is classical logic. It oscillates between intuitionist logic and quantum logic, with some intuitionist quantum logic and quantum intuitionist logic.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2">A basic problem is the inability of people to keep in mind the operation of two aspects of phenomena, cooperative and antagonistic, at the same time. </font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can agree with this. My favorite exemple is that intelligence is needed to develop competence, but competence has a negative feedback on intelligence.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2">Computers work according to algorithms. </font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not really. They work according to data, number, information, that they interpret at some level like an algorithm, or like data. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2">The ground of the universe, in my view, is in the tension, not the separation, between being and non-being, and no algorithm can handle that (now who is being anthropomorphic?!)</font></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Tegmark and Lloyd miss that elementary arithmetic is Turing complete. So we don't know really if there is a physical universe. </div><div><br></div><div>We know only that there is an infinitely complex reality of all computations, in arithmetic. Complex, as most relations between form and function are not algorithmically decidable.</div><div><br></div><div>Yet, the self-reference ability of the universal machine suggests to define the physical reality by what makes some number dream stable and sharable, and apparently it is not much more than self-referential correctness and consistency.</div><div>The (full) arithmetical reality, the one which contains all prime numbers and "can decide" the Riemann hypothesis, is also full of relative number experience/dream, some stable and sharable. In a testable way, at least for precise version like classical computationalism.</div><div><br></div><div>Mechanism predicts the multi-verse apparent empiric structure by a more general multi-experiences structure. But it is not human experience, it is the universal machine experience.</div><div>If we are not machine, this provides the tool to measure the degree of (local) non-computationalism. In that case I would bet we are in a (physical, in the computationalist sense described above) simulation.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Bruno</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2"> </font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Cheers,</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Joseph</font></div><div><font face="Arial" color="#333333" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Calibri" color="#333333" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Calibri" color="#333333" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----<div style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">John Collier</a></div><div><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">fis</a></div><div><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, January 30, 2016 4:58 PM</div><div><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Fis] Information Conservation in black holes</div></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">List,<o:p></o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Sorry I haven’t been able to respond to the interesting remarks on my last post, but it took a while to digest them, and my current health concerns take up a lot of my time, so I haven’t had time to come up with responses that are properly thought out.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">In the meantime, here is an interesting Nature news report about Hawking’s (and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Strominger’s)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>recent proposal for how information can be preserved in black holes (which his 1976 paper set up as a problem for the laws of physics, which imply information conservation at the most basic level. The solution involves a way empty space can carry information in QM via “soft particles”. The answer is apparently not completely worked out as yet, and there are critics.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><a href="http://www.nature.com/news/hawking-s-latest-black-hole-paper-splits-physicists-1.19236?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20160128&spMailingID=50572206&spUserID=MTc2NjY1MTQ2NQS2&spJobID=843774519&spReportId=ODQzNzc0NTE5S0" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.nature.com/news/hawking-s-latest-black-hole-paper-splits-physicists-1.19236?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20160128&spMailingID=50572206&spUserID=MTc2NjY1MTQ2NQS2&spJobID=843774519&spReportId=ODQzNzc0NTE5S0</a><o:p></o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Seth Lloyd described a different possible explanation in his book<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><a title="" href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Programming_the_Universe" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Programming the Universe: A Quantum Computer Scientist Takes On the Cosmos</a></i>, <a title="" href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Alfred_A._Knopf" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Knopf</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(2000) that involves taking into consideration the information in boundaries, which I found plausible, since the information preservation in physics follows from consideration of basic laws together with the constraints of boundary conditions, neither alone.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Perhaps the two approaches are not really distinct. They may eventually cast light on each other. For the time being the Hawking/<span style="background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Strominger proposal also looks like it can solve the “firewall” problem as well, which has the Black Hole boundary being very hot (again, contrary to physical expectations), because information can be transferred into radiation instead of energy, so the information transfer doesn’t require a high temperature at the black hole boundary, unlike other forms of radiation production. All of these explanations, and even stating the problem, require information notions, not just energy as in classical physics.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span>John Collier<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span>Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Associate<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span>University of KwaZulu-Natal<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span><a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://web.ncf.ca/collier</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="font-size: 11pt; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><font face="Calibri"></font><font face="Calibri"></font><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><a href="http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></div></body></html>