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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry you have been ill. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree fully with your statement: <FONT
face=Calibri color=#333333>All of these explanations, and even stating the
problem, require information notions, not just energy as in classical
physics.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri color=#333333 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#333333 size=2>What I object to are statements or
implications that information, whether in boundaries or not, is
ontologically prior to and/or independent of energy. This is how the positions
of people like Lloyd and Tegmark come out, giving 'computation' an agential,
anthropomorphically flavored role at the ground of the universe. The
establishment by Wu Kun and others of information as a <EM>category</EM> implies
separation only in classical logic and category theory, which are just as
limiting as the classical physics John refers to.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#333333 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#333333 size=2>A basic problem is the inability of
people to keep in mind the operation of two aspects of phenomena, cooperative
and antagonistic, at the same time. Computers work according to algorithms. The
ground of the universe, in my view, is in the tension, not the separation,
between being and non-being, and no algorithm can handle that (now who is being
anthropomorphic?!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#333333 size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#333333 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri color=#333333 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri color=#333333 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 30, 2016 4:58 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Fis] Information Conservation in black holes</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal>List,<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Sorry I haven’t been able to respond to the interesting
remarks on my last post, but it took a while to digest them, and my current
health concerns take up a lot of my time, so I haven’t had time to come up with
responses that are properly thought out.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>In the meantime, here is an interesting Nature news report
about Hawking’s (and <SPAN
style="BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: #333333">Strominger’s) </SPAN>recent proposal
for how information can be preserved in black holes (which his 1976 paper set up
as a problem for the laws of physics, which imply information conservation at
the most basic level. The solution involves a way empty space can carry
information in QM via “soft particles”. The answer is apparently not completely
worked out as yet, and there are critics. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><A
href="http://www.nature.com/news/hawking-s-latest-black-hole-paper-splits-physicists-1.19236?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20160128&spMailingID=50572206&spUserID=MTc2NjY1MTQ2NQS2&spJobID=843774519&spReportId=ODQzNzc0NTE5S0">http://www.nature.com/news/hawking-s-latest-black-hole-paper-splits-physicists-1.19236?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20160128&spMailingID=50572206&spUserID=MTc2NjY1MTQ2NQS2&spJobID=843774519&spReportId=ODQzNzc0NTE5S0</A><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Seth Lloyd described a different possible explanation in his
book <I><A title=""
href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Programming_the_Universe">Programming the
Universe: A Quantum Computer Scientist Takes On the Cosmos</A></I>, <A
title="" href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Alfred_A._Knopf">Knopf</A> (2000)
that involves taking into consideration the information in boundaries, which I
found plausible, since the information preservation in physics follows from
consideration of basic laws together with the constraints of boundary
conditions, neither alone.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Perhaps the two approaches are not really distinct. They may
eventually cast light on each other. For the time being the Hawking/<SPAN
style="BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: #333333">Strominger proposal also looks like it
can solve the “firewall” problem as well, which has the Black Hole boundary
being very hot (again, contrary to physical expectations), because information
can be transferred into radiation instead of energy, so the information transfer
doesn’t require a high temperature at the black hole boundary, unlike other
forms of radiation production. All of these explanations, and even stating
the problem, require information notions, not just energy as in classical
physics.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-fareast-language: EN-CA">John
Collier<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-fareast-language: EN-CA">Professor Emeritus
and Senior Research Associate<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-fareast-language: EN-CA">University of
KwaZulu-Natal<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-fareast-language: EN-CA">http://web.ncf.ca/collier<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P></P><FONT face=Calibri></FONT><FONT face=Calibri></FONT>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Fis mailing
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