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<font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Dear Pedro, and the previous
discussants,<br>
<br>
I refer to my paper presented last year at the Vienna summit:<br>
- quarks continuously exchange gluons;<br>
- gluon exchange takes place between quarks in different
"colour" states<br>
(otherwise they were in identical quantum states, what is
excluded by the Pauli principle);<br>
- they must avoid to get into identical colour state even after
the gluon exchange;<br>
- for this reason, before (or at least parallel to) gluon
exchange, they must obtain information on the (colour) state of
the partner;<br>
- whatever physical phenomenon mediates this knowledge about the
partner, this is a kind of <b>information</b> exchange.<br>
Isn't it a "real" communication?<br>
I argue: it is.<br>
<br>
Best regards, Gyuri<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016.01.21. 15:06, Pedro C. Marijuan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56A0E5D2.6040507@aragon.es" type="cite">Dear
FIS Colleagues,
<br>
<br>
Thanks to Jerry and Koichiro for their insightful and deep
comments. Nevertheless the question from Howard was very clear and
direct and I wonder whether we have responded that way --as usual,
the simplest becomes the most difficult. I will try here.
<br>
<br>
There is no "real" communication between quarks as they merely
follow physical law--the state of the system is altered by some
input according to boundary conditions and to the state own
variables and parameters that dictate the way Law(s) have to
intervene. The outcome may be probabilistic, but it is inexorably
determined.
<br>
<br>
There is real communication between cells, people,
organizations... as the input is sensed (or disregarded) and
judged according to boundary conditions and to the accumulated
experiential information content of the entity. The outcome is
adaptive: aiming at the self-production/self-propagation of the
entity.
<br>
<br>
In sum, the former is blind, while the second is oriented and made
meaning-ful by the life cycle of the entity.
<br>
<br>
Well, if we separate communication from the phenomenon of life,
from its intertwining with the life cycle of the entity, then
everything goes... and yes, quarks communicate, as well as
billiard balls, stones, cells, etc. Directly we provide further
anchor to the mechanistic way of thinking.
<br>
<br>
best regards--Pedro
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Koichiro Matsuno escribió:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
At 2:43 AM 01/19/2016, Jerry wrote:
<br>
<br>
In order for symbolic chemical communication to occur, the
language must go far beyond such simplistic notions of a primary
interaction among forces, such as centripetal orbits or even the
four basic forces.
<br>
<br>
The quark physicist is quirky in confining a set of quarks,
including possibly tetra- or even penta-, within a closed bag
with use of a virtual exchange of matter called gluons. This bag
is methodologically tightly-cohesive because of the virtuality
of the things to be exchanged exclusively in a closed manner. In
contrast, the real exchange of matter underlying the actual
instantiation of cohesion, which concerns the information
phenomenologist facing chemistry and biology in a serious
manner, is about something referring to something else in the
actual and is thus open-ended. Jerry, you seem calling our
attention to the actual cohesion acting in the empirical world
which the physicist has failed in coping with, so far.
<br>
<br>
Koichiro
<br>
<br>
*From:*Fis [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] *On Behalf Of
*Jerry LR Chandler
<br>
*Sent:* Tuesday, January 19, 2016 2:43 AM
<br>
*To:* fis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
<br>
*Subject:* [Fis] _ Re: Cho 2016 The social life of quarks
<br>
<br>
Koichiro, Bob U., Pedro:
<br>
<br>
Recent posts here illustrate the fundamental discord between
modes of human communication. Pedro’s last post neatly
addresses the immediate issue.
<br>
<br>
But, the basic issue goes far, far deeper.
<br>
<br>
The challenge of communicating our meanings is not restricted to
just scientific meaning vs. historical meaning. Nor,
communication between the general community and, say, the music
(operatic and ballad) communities.
<br>
<br>
Nor, is it merely a matter of definition of terms and
re-defining terms as “metaphor”in another discipline.
<br>
<br>
Pedro’s post aims toward the deeper issues, issues that are
fairly known and understood in the symbolic logic and chemical
communities. In the chemical community, the understanding is at
the level of intuition because ordinary usage within the
discipline requires an intuitive understanding of the way
symbolic usage manifests itself in different disciplines.
<br>
<br>
(For a detailed description of these issues, see, The Primary
Logic, Instruments for a dialogue between the two Cultures. M.
Malatesta, Gracewings, Fowler Wright Books, 1997.)
<br>
<br>
The Polish Logician, A. Tarski, recognized the separation of
meanings and definitions requires the usage of METALANGUAGES.
For example, ordinary public language is necessary for
expression of meaning of mathematical symbolic logic. But, from
the basic mathematical language, once it grounded in ordinary
grammar, develops new set of symbols and new meanings for
relations among mathematical symbols. Consequently,
mathematicians re-define a long index of terms that are have
different meanings in its technical language.
<br>
<br>
The meaning of mathematical terms is developed from an
associative logic that is foreign to ordinary language. From
these antecedents, the consequences are abundantly clear. The
communication between the meta-languages fail. The
mathematicians have added vast symbolic logical structures to
their symbolic communication with symbols. In other words, the
ordinary historian and scientist are not able to grasp the
distinctive meanings of mathematical information.
<br>
<br>
Physical information is restricted to physical units of measure
and hence constrained to borrowing mathematical symbols and
relating to the ordinary language as its meta-language.
<br>
<br>
The perplexity of chemical information theory is such that it is
not understandable in any one meta-language or any pair of
meta-languages. In order for symbolic chemical communication to
occur, the language must go far beyond such simplistic notions
of a primary interaction among forces, such as centripetal
orbits or even the four basic forces.
<br>
<br>
The early metalanguage of chemistry was merely terms within
ordinary language, such as the names of elements. Or, the common
names for oils from various sources. Around the turn of the 19
th Century, the metalanguage of chemistry started it
century-long journey to become a meta-language of mathematics
with the development of the concepts of atomic weights for each
singular elements and molecular weight, and molecular formula
for each different molecule.
<br>
<br>
The critical distinction that separates the meta-language of
chemistry from other metalanguages is the absolute requirement
for specification of the name of any object on the basis of it’s
distinction from other signs or collections of signs.
<br>
<br>
Thus, chemical information theory, in terms of metalanguages,
requires the exact usage of the meta-languages of both physics
and mathematics in order to define the origin of its symbolic
logic, as well as the natural metalanguage of ordinary human
communication.
<br>
<br>
Biological information theory is grounded on chemical
information theory, using a particular encoding of meaning
within dynamical systems, to communicate among the 5 essential
metalanguages necessary for the practice of the medical arts.
And, I might add, for human history.
<br>
<br>
The failure of luke-warm physics to serve as a foundation for a
generalized information theory is the lack of terminology that
can be used to communicate among the symbolic logics used in
more advanced modes of human communication.
<br>
<br>
In summary, in the 21 st Century, the foundation of human
symbolic communication requires multiple metalanguages and
symbol systems, that is, a generalized information theory. Such
a generalized theory of information must necessarily include
the symbolic logic of chemistry, which is essential to span the
symbolic gaps between the disciplines.
<br>
<br>
(For those of you who are familiar with my background, this
email illuminates some of the reasoning behind the development
of the perplex number system and perplex systems theory within
the associative symbolic logic of graph theory.)
<br>
<br>
Cheers
<br>
<br>
Jerry
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Begin forwarded message:
<br>
<br>
*From: *"Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"><mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es></a>>
<br>
<br>
*Subject: Re: [Fis] Cho 2016 The social life of quarks*
<br>
<br>
*Date: *January 18, 2016 at 5:50:40 AM CST
<br>
<br>
*To: *'fis' <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es></a>>
<br>
<br>
Dear Howard and colleagues,
<br>
<br>
OK, you can say that quarks communicate, but immediately we
need
<br>
to create another term for "real" communication. I mean,
there are
<br>
quarks (fermions) and bosons (particle forces) everywhere:
<br>
planets, stars, galaxies, etc. Their multiple interactions
<br>
constitute most of the contents of physics. If you want to
term
<br>
"communication" to some basic categories of physical
interactions
<br>
based on force exchange --of some of the 4 fundamental
forces,
<br>
whatever-- we run into difficulties to characterize the
<br>
communication that entails signals, agents and meanings, and
<br>
responses. That's the "real" communication we find after the
<br>
origins of that singular organization we call life
--essential
<br>
then for the later emergence of superorganisms, peaking
order,
<br>
memes, etc. You have oceans of interacting fermions and
bosons
<br>
around, but the new communicating phenomenology is only
found in
<br>
our minuscule planet.
<br>
<br>
As an explanatory metaphor, it is not a good idea, almost
wrong I
<br>
dare say. But as a free-wheeling, literary metaphor it
belongs to
<br>
the author's choice. The problem is that both realms of
<br>
information, so to speak, have relatively overlapping
components,
<br>
depending on the explanatory framework used (see the ongoing
<br>
exchanges by Stan, John, Terry, etc.) And that kind of
apparent
<br>
homogenization blurs the effort to establish the
distinctions and
<br>
advance in a unifying perspective (I think!!). In any case,
it
<br>
deserves more discussion. In your Jan. 14th message you ad
more
<br>
elements--I will think twice!.
<br>
<br>
All the best--Pedro
<br>
<br>
PS. Clarifying the two messages per week rule (responding to
<br>
offline quests): the two messages should be counted along
the
<br>
"international business week": starting on Monday until the
end of
<br>
Sunday, Greenwich Time. Thanks to all for respecting this
<br>
"boundary condition"!
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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