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Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
I agree with Loet's views (for once! <span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>
:-) </span></span>). The energy flow supporting the biosphere and
society as a whole have not much explanatory power regarding the
bonding complexity of contemporary societies. Of course, it is an
interesting exercise, particularly concerning the limits of
sustainability, but we have had so much thermodynamic inflation that it
is very difficult adding anything relevant. Irrespective of its
sophistication, the energetic realm can hardly substitute for the
informational realm. <br>
About the intriguing interrelationship between kinship and nonkinsip
modalities of human bonding, a very interesting view was drafted by
Francis Fukuyama (1995), centered on "trust". He was distinguishing
between "familial" centered societies and "high trust" societies. In
European terms (exaggerating), it is the dichotomy between the
Mediterranean societal culture and the Anglosaxon culture. It is not a
black and white narrative, as each polarity has advantages and
disadvantages (think on wine & Mediterranean food!), and actually
today each country and each culture has some terrible mix of
everything, but it is interesting just to see how the two kinds of
bonding may interact within a complex society. I also penned a few
ideas about the matter in my recent "How the Living is in the world"<small><small>
</small></small><big><big><small><small>(DOI information:
10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002.) I am copying below a paragraph
(maybe a little bit long--excuses). </small></small></big></big><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"><big><br>
<br>
This coarse reflection on the dynamics of successive “informational
entities” helps us make sense of fundamentals of social evolution. The
transition to a new social order, more or less ‘revolutionary’, tends
to be produced
by new information channels and communication practices that support
the emergence
of new ways to organize the structures of social self-production. Thus,
the
development of social complexity appears as irreversibly linked to a
chain of historical
inventions for communication and knowledge generation: numbers,
writing,
alphabet, codices, universities, printing press, books, steam engines,
means of
communication, computers, Internet, etc. (Stonier, 1990; Hobart and
Schiffman,
1998). This succession of fundamental inventions has dramatically
altered the
“infostructure” of modern societies, and subsequently the informational
formula
for being in the world has been applied with multiple variants along
that complexity runaway: with plenty of room generated by the new
information
tools, not at the bottom but at the supra-individual top. We should not
forget that
the momentous Scientific Revolution was preceded by what has been
called the
silent “corporate revolution” (Huff, 2011), which opened the way for
collective
organizations legally autonomous in European cities during XIII and XIV
centuries:
universities, parliaments, counsels, municipalities, professional
colleges, guilds,
mercantile associations, charities, schools, etc. It was this Medieval
awakening
in the cities of Western Europe what made possible the later
hyperinflation of
autonomous collective organizations, –“information based”– growing
exponentially and propelling all the further complexity of modern
societies.</big><o:p></o:p></span></i>
<big><big><br>
<small><small><br>
All the best--Pedro</small></small><br>
</big><br>
Loet Leydesdorff wrote:</big>
<blockquote cite="mid002901d133ff$a3766f20$ea634d60$@leydesdorff.net"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);">Dear
colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);">I
don’t consider it as fruitful to recycle the argument that society were
to be modeled as a meta-biology. The biological explanation can perhaps
explain behavior of individuals and institutions; but social
coordination more generally involves also the dynamics of expectations.
These are much more abstract although conditioned by the historical
layer. For example, one cannot expect to explain the <i>trias politica</i>
or the rule of law biologically. These cultural constructs regulate our
behavior from above, whereas the biological supports existence and
living from below. The historical follows the axis of time, whereas the
codification (albeit historical in the instantiations) also
restructures and potentially intervenes and reorganizes social
relations from the perspective of hindsight.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);">In
analogy to codifications such as the juridical ones, scientific
knowledge provides the code for technological intervention. This type
of knowledge is human-specific; perhaps, we are also able to build
machines that mimick it. This technological evolution is going on for
centuries. If I look up from my screen, I look into the gardens which
have a typical Dutch polder vegetation. The polder was made in the 17<sup>th</sup>
century and replaced the natural ecology of marsh land and lakes. The
order of the explanation was thus inverted: the constructed structures
(instead of the constructing agencies) increasingly carry the system.
The constructs don’t have to be material; see my example of the rule of
law. It is not a religion, but a dynamics of expectations. Replacing it
with a biology misses the point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);">Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
<hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Loet
Leydesdorff </span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Professor,
University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><a
href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;">loet@leydesdorff.net </span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">;
</span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><a
href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: black;">Honorary
Professor, </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><a
href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">SPRU,
</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: black;">University
of Sussex; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: black;">Guest
Professor </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><a
href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Zhejiang
Univ.</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: black;">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><a
href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;">ISTIC, </span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: black;">Beijing;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: black;">Visiting
Professor, </span><a name="_GoBack"></a><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><a
href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: black;">,
University of London; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><a
href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Fis
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nikhil Joshi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 11, 2015 9:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> FIS Group<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nikhil Joshi<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research:
The Lifel, Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Dear Guy and FIS colleagues,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Thank you for your comments and the copy of
your article. Your views on the roots of biological systems and their
evolution in dissipate systems are very interesting. Your paper reminds
me of a paper by Virgo and Froese on how simple dissipative structures
can demonstrate many of the characteristics associated with living
systems, and the work of Jeremy England at MIT.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Given your research focus and expertise in
looking at living systems as dissipative systems, I would appreciate
your views and assistance in understanding the energetics involved in
the common multilevel organisational pattern (CMOP) (presented in the
paper II of the kick-off mail).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-align: justify;">At
first glance, i<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;">t
appears that different levels in self-organization in living systems a
core dynamic in living systems is comprised of a cycle between a class
of more-stable species (coupled-composite species) and a class of
less-stable species (decoupled-composite species), see paper II in the
kick-off mail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-align: justify;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">hence:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-align: justify;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Level 1: Molecular self-organization,
involves a cycle between oxidised molecules (more stable) and reduced
molecules (less stable) in molecular self-organization in
photosynthesis and cellular metabolism [Morowitz and smith]. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-align: justify;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-align: justify;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Level 2: Cellular self-orgnaization,
involves a cycle between autotrophic species (more stable) and
heterotrophic species (less stable) in ecosystems [Stability of species
types as defined by- Yodzis and Innes Yodzis, P.; Innes, S. Body Size
and Consumer-Resource Dynamics. <i>Am. Nat.</i> 1992, <i>139</i>,
1151].</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-align: justify;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; text-align: justify;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Level 3: Social self-self-organization,
involves a cycle between kinship-based social groups (more stable) and
non-kinship-based social groups (less stable) [Stability of species
types as suggested in Paper II, based on an extension of work of Robin
Dunbar and others]. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">At level 1 (molecular self-organiztion)-
solar energy is stored in the high-energy reduced molecules. Do you
see a possibility that living systems could store energy in cycles
involving less stable species at the two other levels (level 2, and 3)
as well? (When I speak of stored energy, I am referring to
stored-energy as introduced by Mclare, and discussed by Ulanowicz and
Ho [Sustainable Systems as Organisms?, </span><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Times","serif";">BioSystems 82
(2005) 39–51]</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;">. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">These are early thoughts and your views are
much appreciated. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Many Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Warm regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Nikhil Joshi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;">On 01-Dec-2015, at
10:27 pm, Guy A Hoelzer <<a href="mailto:hoelzer@unr.edu">hoelzer@unr.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;">I have been
following this thread with interest as much as time permits. I think
multilevel approaches to understanding information flow is an important
one. I also think the structure of natural systems exhibits both
hierarchical and heterarchical features. The hierarchies we formally
recognize can be extremely useful, but they are rarely exclusive of
alternatives. Here is a link to a paper Mark Tessera and I published a
couple of years ago arguing for one particular hierarchy of multilevel
emergence in physical systems connecting lower level physical systems
to biological systems:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;">Tessara, M., and
G. A. Hoelzer. 2013. On the thermodynamics of multilevel evolution.
Biosystems 113: 140–143.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;">Guy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;">Guy Hoelzer,
Associate Professor<br>
Department of Biology<br>
University of Nevada Reno<br>
<br>
Phone: 775-784-4860<br>
Fax: 775-784-1302<br>
<a href="mailto:hoelzer@unr.edu">hoelzer@unr.edu</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
-------------------------------------------------
</pre>
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