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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Doing dimensional analysis entropy is heat difference divided by temperature. Heat is energy, and temperature is energy per degree of freedom. Dividing, we get units of inverse degrees of freedom. I submit that
information has the same fundamental measure (this is a consequence of Scott Muller¡¯s asymmetry principle of information. So fundamentally we are talking about the same basic thing with information and entropy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I agree, though, that it is viewed from different perspectives and they have differing conventions for measurement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I agree with Loet¡¯s other points.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Loet Leydesdorff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> July 26, 2015 8:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Fernando Flores'; fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Answer to the comments made by Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">Dear Joe,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">information is more than order; there is information in absence (Deacon), in disorder, in incoherence as well as coherence;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">The absent options provide the redundancy; that is, the complement of the information to the maximal information [H(max)].<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">See also my recent communication (in Vienna) or at
<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.05251">http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.05251</a> <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">information is not the same as matter-energy, but it is inseparable from it and reflects its dualistic properties;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">Information is dimensionless. It is coupled to the physics of matter-energy because S = k(B) * H.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">k(B) provides the dimensionality (Joule/Kelvin) and thus the physics. In other domains of application (e.g., economics), this coupling [via k(B)] is not meaningful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><span style="mso-list:Ignore">c)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">information is both energy and a carrier of meaning, which is not, in my humble opinion, a hard physicalist approach;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:54.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">Meaning provides more options to the information and thus increases the redundancy. In the case of reflexivity and further codification of meanings, the generation
of redundancy can auto-catalytically be reinforced (Ulanowicz).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A">Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">d) it remains to be shown that digitalism or computationalism is or could be the natural language for the description of the non-digital
world, that is, of the complexity of the world that is of interest. Rafael Capurro has talked about the 'digital casting' of the world that we (or most of us) use in our daily lives, but this philosophical concept, with which I agree, is not a scientific description
of the physics of informational processes as such. The best synthesis here of which I am aware is the Informational-Computationalism of Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic and even that is a framework, not an ontology.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">e) it is possible to use probabilities to describe the evolution of real processes, as well as as a mathematical language for describing
acts;</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">f) your presentation of a parameter designated as 'freedom' is indeed original, but it is a classificatory system, based on bits. It
will miss the non-algorithmic aspects of values. I am suspicious of things that have infinite levels and represent 'pure' anything;
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">g) I do not feel you have added value to human acts by designating them as
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"">¡Ş-free</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> This may not be intended as doctrine but it looks like it.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">h) your conclusions about informational value are correct from what I will call a hard neo-capitalist ;-) standpoint, but I am sure
you agree there are other ones.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In trying to learn through association with this FIS group, I have come to believe that Informational Science is unique in that it can
capture some of the complexity of nature, culture and society. It is not a 'hard simplification' as you suggest some sciences are. The concept of (its) foundations is very broad, and it can and should include careful binary analyses such as the one you have
made. However, I am pleading for a more directed positioning of your approach with respect to others. Is this an acceptable basis for you for continuing the debate?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thank you again,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Joseph</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;background:#E4E4E4"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:fernando.flores@kultur.lu.se" title="fernando.flores@kultur.lu.se">
Fernando Flores</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Thursday, July 23, 2015 3:58 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Subject:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> [Fis] Answer to the comments made
by Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Hello everybody:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">I will answer to the comments made by Joseph and Luis will answer to the comments made by Mois¨¦s.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Dear Joseph:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Thank you for your comments. We are not sure about the usefulness of identifying ¡°information¡± (order) with ¡°mater¡±. In this sense we are very
carefully to avoid any hard physicalist approach. In this sense we believe with Norbert Wiener:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:64.35pt;text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph">
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Garamond","serif";mso-fareast-language:SV">The mechanical brain does not secrete thought ¡°as the liver does bile¡±, as the earlier materialist claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out
its activity. Information is information, not matter nor energy. No materialism, which does not admit this, can survive at the present day.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";mso-fareast-language:SV">An informational description of the world must stand as a new branch of science in which ¡°digitalism¡± will be
the natural language. Of course as any other science, it is a simplification of the complexity of nature/society/culture. I believe that we are shown that we are very conscious about the risks of a hard simplification, and that is why we introduced that idea
of freedom in a chain of acts and use probability as mathematical language. We considered the vital acts as ¡Ş-free.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Fernando Flores PhD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Associate Professor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">History of Ideas and Sciences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Lund University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">_______________________________________________<br>
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