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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'>Dear Joe,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>information is more than order; there is information in absence (Deacon), in disorder, in incoherence as well as coherence;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'>The absent options provide the redundancy; that is, the complement of the information to the maximal information [H(max)].<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'>See also my recent communication (in Vienna) or at <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.05251">http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.05251</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>information is not the same as matter-energy, but it is inseparable from it and reflects its dualistic properties; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'>Information is dimensionless. It is coupled to the physics of matter-energy because S = k(B) * H. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'>k(B) provides the dimensionality (Joule/Kelvin) and thus the physics. In other domains of application (e.g., economics), this coupling [via k(B)] is not meaningful.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>c)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>information is both energy and a carrier of meaning, which is not, in my humble opinion, a hard physicalist approach; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:.75in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in'><span style='color:#44546A'>Meaning provides more options to the information and thus increases the redundancy. In the case of reflexivity and further codification of meanings, the generation of redundancy can auto-catalytically be reinforced (Ulanowicz).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in'><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in'><span style='color:#44546A'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in'><span style='color:#44546A'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in'><span style='color:#44546A'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d) it remains to be shown that digitalism or computationalism is or could be the natural language for the description of the non-digital world, that is, of the complexity of the world that is of interest. Rafael Capurro has talked about the 'digital casting' of the world that we (or most of us) use in our daily lives, but this philosophical concept, with which I agree, is not a scientific description of the physics of informational processes as such. The best synthesis here of which I am aware is the Informational-Computationalism of Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic and even that is a framework, not an ontology.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>e) it is possible to use probabilities to describe the evolution of real processes, as well as as a mathematical language for describing acts;</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>f) your presentation of a parameter designated as 'freedom' is indeed original, but it is a classificatory system, based on bits. It will miss the non-algorithmic aspects of values. I am suspicious of things that have infinite levels and represent 'pure' anything; </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>g) I do not feel you have added value to human acts by designating them as </span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>¡Ş-free</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> This may not be intended as doctrine but it looks like it.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>h) your conclusions about informational value are correct from what I will call a hard neo-capitalist ;-) standpoint, but I am sure you agree there are other ones.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In trying to learn through association with this FIS group, I have come to believe that Informational Science is unique in that it can capture some of the complexity of nature, culture and society. It is not a 'hard simplification' as you suggest some sciences are. The concept of (its) foundations is very broad, and it can and should include careful binary analyses such as the one you have made. However, I am pleading for a more directed positioning of your approach with respect to others. Is this an acceptable basis for you for continuing the debate?</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thank you again,</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Joseph</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:fernando.flores@kultur.lu.se" title="fernando.flores@kultur.lu.se">Fernando Flores</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Thursday, July 23, 2015 3:58 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> [Fis] Answer to the comments made by Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Hello everybody:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><pre style='margin-left:.5in'>I will answer to the comments made by Joseph and Luis will answer to the comments made by Mois¨¦s.<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Dear Joseph:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Thank you for your comments. We are not sure about the usefulness of identifying ¡°information¡± (order) with ¡°mater¡±. In this sense we are very carefully to avoid any hard physicalist approach. In this sense we believe with Norbert Wiener: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:6.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:64.35pt;text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Garamond","serif";mso-fareast-language:SV'>The mechanical brain does not secrete thought ¡°as the liver does bile¡±, as the earlier materialist claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information is information, not matter nor energy. No materialism, which does not admit this, can survive at the present day.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:13.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";mso-fareast-language:SV'>An informational description of the world must stand as a new branch of science in which ¡°digitalism¡± will be the natural language. Of course as any other science, it is a simplification of the complexity of nature/society/culture. I believe that we are shown that we are very conscious about the risks of a hard simplification, and that is why we introduced that idea of freedom in a chain of acts and use probability as mathematical language. We considered the vital acts as ¡Ş-free.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Fernando Flores PhD<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Associate Professor<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>History of Ideas and Sciences<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Lund University<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div></body></html>