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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Fernando,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is becoming very interesting. I understand
your critique, but I do not believe it applies exactly to what I am trying
to say. I start from a position that the apodictic statement by Wiener is not or
in any case is no longer valid. In my view, the following should be taken
into account: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>a) information is more than order; there is
information in absence (Deacon), in disorder, in incoherence as well as
coherence;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>b) information is not the same as
matter-energy, but it is inseparable from it and reflects its dualistic
properties; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>c) information is both energy and a carrier of
meaning, which is not, in my humble opinion, a hard physicalist approach;
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>d) it remains to be shown that digitalism or
computationalism is or could be the natural language for the description of the
non-digital world, that is, of the complexity of the world that is of interest.
Rafael Capurro has talked about the 'digital casting' of the world that we (or
most of us) use in our daily lives, but this philosophical concept, with which I
agree, is not a scientific description of the physics of informational
processes as such. The best synthesis here of which I am aware is the
Informational-Computationalism of Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic and even that is a
framework, not an ontology.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>e) it is possible to use probabilities to describe
the evolution of real processes, as well as as a mathematical language for
describing acts;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>f) your presentation of a parameter designated as
'freedom' is indeed original, but it is a classificatory system, based on bits.
It will miss the non-algorithmic aspects of values. I am suspicious of things
that have infinite levels and represent 'pure' anything; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g) I do not feel you have added value to human acts
by designating them as <FONT face=Garamond size=4>¡Ş-free</FONT> This may
not be intended as doctrine but it looks like it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>h) your conclusions about informational value are
correct from what I will call a hard neo-capitalist ;-) standpoint, but I am
sure you agree there are other ones.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In trying to learn through association with this
FIS group, I have come to believe that Informational Science is unique in that
it can capture some of the complexity of nature, culture and society. It is not
a 'hard simplification' as you suggest some sciences are. The concept
of (its) foundations is very broad, and it can and should include careful
binary analyses such as the one you have made. However, I am pleading for a more
directed positioning of your approach with respect to others. Is this an
acceptable basis for you for continuing the debate?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you again,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fernando.flores@kultur.lu.se
href="mailto:fernando.flores@kultur.lu.se">Fernando Flores</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 23, 2015 3:58
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Fis] Answer to the comments
made by Joseph</DIV>
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<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Hello
everybody:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P><PRE>I will answer to the comments made by Joseph and Luis will answer to the comments made by Mois¨¦s.<o:p></o:p></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Dear
Joseph:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Thank you for your
comments. We are not sure about the usefulness of identifying ¡°information¡±
(order) with ¡°mater¡±. In this sense we are very carefully to avoid any hard
physicalist approach. In this sense we believe with </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Norbert Wiener:
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=Brdindrag><SPAN class=FormatmallBrdindragGaramond14ptChar><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>The mechanical brain does not secrete thought ¡°as the liver does
bile¡±, as the earlier materialist cl</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
class=FormatmallBrdindragGaramondChar><SPAN lang=EN-GB>aimed, nor does it put
it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information
is i</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=FormatmallBrdindragGaramond14ptChar><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>nformation, not matter nor energy. No materialism, which does not
admit this, can survive at the present day.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=FormatmallBrdindragGaramond14ptChar><SPAN
lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt">An informational description of the world
must stand as a new branch of science in which ¡°digitalism¡± will be the
natural language. Of course as any other science, it is a simplification
of the complexity of nature/society/culture. I believe that we are shown that
we are very conscious about the risks of a hard simplification, and that is
why we introduced that idea of freedom in a chain of acts and use probability
as mathematical language. We considered the vital acts as
¡Ş-free.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Fernando Flores
PhD<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Associate Professor<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">History
of Ideas and Sciences<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Lund
University<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P></P><FONT face=Calibri size=2></FONT><FONT face=Calibri size=2></FONT>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Fis mailing
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