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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">Dear
John,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">I
am pleased to return to the discussion of two, related points in your note:
1) scientists such as Scott Muller have been motivated by empirical issues which
have produced valid results, not by dogma; 2) I am not working on empirical
problems.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">My
position is that my work on real problems starts where some of that on
‘empirical’ problems leaves off, and I will try to use your reference to Scott
Muller’s <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Asymmetry: The Foundation of
Information</I> (2007, Springer) to illustrate this. First, I should recommend
the book for its excellent summary of the relationship between <?xml:namespace
prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place
w:st="on">Shannon</st1:place> and Boltzmann entropy. I also fully agree with
Muller that “information is an objective quantity capable of relational
representation”, and that there is a material manifestation of an inverse
relationship between symmetry and entropy. However, Terrence Deacon, as we all
know, has since shown that the above thermodynamic/statistical-mechanical view
can and must be supplemented by the addition of Darwinian ‘entropy’ for real
biological systems.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">I
also agree with Muller when he says that probability must be an objective,
physical property and his rejection of any subjective interpretation. However,
(‘dogma’? ‘standard view’?), he states that the only legitimate scientific use
of probability is as a property of a dynamic mass system, a collective within
which some attribute may be found (Von Mises). Isolated events have no
probabilistic significance. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">Such
a position ignores the interaction between <EM>two</EM> or some small
number of real events or processes, in which probability must be defined
differently and has different role. I suggest that probability is a measure
of their respective capacity (potential) for subsequent actualization or
potentialization. In his discussion of causal processes that generate and
destroy information, Muller correctly relates symmetry breaking to the
resolution of potentiality into actuality but he, like Aristotle, does not see
the necessity for expressing the contrary movement. This is part of the basis of
my critique of ‘it-from-bit’ and my ‘proposal’ for going beyond
it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">Thank
you and best regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN
lang=EN-CA
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-font-kerning: 0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">Joseph<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John
Collier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">Joseph Brenner</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, June 13, 2015 12:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing,
and Information - apologies!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dear
Joseph, List,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
am running past my allotment, so I will shut up after this for a while. (I
have to go to California for a workshop in any case, and won’t have much
internet access for the two days I am traveling.) <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
“it from bit” view was developed (after its origins for other reasons I will
come to) partly to pose questions about black holes that cannot be posed in
terms of energy. It also applies to any horizon, including event and particle
horizons. Whatever the answer, it permits well-posed questions that have not
been able to be posed in other terms, at least so far.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
“it from bit” view is independent of, but strongly recommends a computational
view. I have argued for a transfer of information view of causation on
independent philosophical grounds as a development of Russell’s at-at view of
causation. The two approaches converge nicely.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">My
understanding of the “it from bit” view does not require a binary logic of
causation, but emergence of information comes from bifurcations (Layzer,
Frautschi, Collier, among others). So that is another happy convergence of two
approaches. I see no reason why trifurcations and other higher order splits
might not be possible, if unlikely. This is an empirical question, but makes
no difference to the underlying mathematics, which takes base 2 logarithms by
convention, for convenience. I don’t see this issue as empirical in itself,
but the convenience has some empirical force.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
stronger “it from bit” view that applies to everything was due originally to
Wheeler, not any of the physicists mentioned so far, and supported by
Gell-Mann. Their reason is that empirical values in quantum mechanics often
have been shown to arise from asymmetries, and they assume this will continue
(proton spin is one notable current problem, but the problem is being pursued
by this method, to the best of my understanding). My former student Scott
Muller was able to show that asymmetries in a system assign a unique
information content in the it from bit sense. In any case, the view has an
empirical motivation, and has produced empirically satisfying results, if not
universally so far.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">With
all due respect, Joseph, the scientists I have mentioned have been motivated
by empirical issues (problems), not dogma, but you are not working on
empirical problems. I have argued that the approach is motivated primarily by
empirical issues, and it is simply wrong to attribute it to “authority”, since
anyone in principle has access to the empirical issues and can make their own
proposals. I have not seen these forthcoming for the issues
involved.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
will shut up now.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">John<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><A name=_MailEndCompose><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></A></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Fis
[mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joseph
Brenner<BR><B>Sent:</B> June 13, 2015 10:16 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
fis<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">Joseph
Brenner</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Saturday, June 13,
2015 10:13 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Fw: [Fis]
Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dear
Colleagues,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I completely agree
with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the issue on which it
taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that there cannot be models and
insights for science in religious beliefs, such as the Kabbala, but
then John's diagram would be more appropriate if it had <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">En Sof</SPAN></EM> at the center
rather than It-from-Bit.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The statement
"It-from-Bit is just information", further, requires analysis: do we 1)
accept this as dogma, including the implied limitation of information to
separable binary entities? or 2) assume that the universe is constituted
by complex informational processes, in which the term 'It-from-Bit' is
misleading at best, and should be avoided?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I feel particularly
uncomfortable when dogmatic computational views such as those of Lloyd and
Davies are presented as authoritative without comment, except by appeal to the
authority of 'some physicists'. Those FISers who would like to see a
reasonably considered rebuttal might look at my article in <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Information</SPAN></EM>: "The Logic
of the Physics of Information".</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Best
wishes,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Joseph</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=markov@foibg.com href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">Krassimir Markov</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A> ;
<A title=ssalthe@binghamton.edu href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N
Salthe</A> ; <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday, June 12,
2015 11:18 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [Fis]
Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dear
John and Stan,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Your
two hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">But
this is belief, not science.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Sorry,
nothing personal!</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Friendly
regards</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Krassimir</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
title=Collierj@ukzn.ac.za href="mailto:Collierj@ukzn.ac.za">John Collier</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
title=ssalthe@binghamton.edu href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">Stanley N
Salthe</A> ; <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Re:
[Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information -
apologies!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Not
quite the same hierarchy, but similar:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><IMG id=Picture_x0020_1
height=461 src="cid:CEA273B7DD14400A91A2EA3A2D6FA572@PCdeJoseph" width=477
border=0></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">It
from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with
this.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Chemical
information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological
systems.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">John<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Fis
[<A
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stanley N Salthe<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 12, 2015
3:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> fis<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing,
and Information - apologies!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Pedro -- Your
list:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; COLOR: black">physical,
biological, social, and Informational</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; COLOR: black">is implicitly
a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the physical subsuming
the biological and the biological subsuming the social. But where should
information appear? Following Wheeler, we should have:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; COLOR: black">{informational
{physicochemical {biological {social}}}}</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; COLOR: black">STAN</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM,
Pedro C. Marijuan <<A href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target=_blank>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thanks, Ken. I think your
previous message and this one are drawing sort of the border-lines of the
discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the interrelationship between
computation and information is an essential matter. In my opinion, and
following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are involved and
meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the mere info circulation
according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle relevant aspect,
may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may help to consider
more clearly the relationship between the four great domains of sceince:
physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex
Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow,
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past
conference!<BR><BR>best ---Pedro<BR><BR>Ken Herold
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">FIS:<BR><BR>Sorry to have been
too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not intend to
substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of philosophy
or computing. The references I listed are indicative of some bad
thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon. Our focus is information
and I would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of
Rosenbloom could be helpful?<BR><BR>Ken<BR><BR>-- <BR>Ken Herold<BR>Director,
Library Information Systems<BR>Hamilton College<BR>198 College Hill
Road<BR>Clinton, NY 13323<BR><A href="tel:315-859-4487"
target=_blank>315-859-4487</A><BR><A href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu"
target=_blank>kherold@hamilton.edu</A> <mailto:<A
href="mailto:kherold@hamilton.edu"
target=_blank>kherold@hamilton.edu</A>><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><BR>--
<BR>-------------------------------------------------<BR>Pedro C.
Marijuán<BR>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<BR>Instituto
Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud<BR>Centro de Investigación Biomédica de
Aragón (CIBA)<BR>Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X<BR>50009 Zaragoza,
Spain<BR>Tfno. <A href="tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526" target=_blank>+34 976 71
3526</A> (& 6818)<BR><A href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target=_blank>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A><BR><A
href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/"
target=_blank>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</A><BR>-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>