<div dir="ltr">On Bateson's "difference that makes a difference." <div><br></div><div>We should not expect such a quip to be a sufficient explanation of information in all its complexity. It is merely a useful mnemonic (coined also by MacKay as a "distinction that makes a difference") that captures both Shannon's logic and Bateson's cybernetic implications. But this is not all. If one wants to try to force this phrase to carry more of the weight of completely characterizing information it should be further interpreted. Notice that it is also an appropriate quip to describe the concept of physical work— a gradient (or difference of potential) that is reduced in a constrained way so that it generates an increase in a gradient or difference in potntial or pushes a system further from equilibrium. </div><div><br></div><div>This double applicability is not merely a terminological coincidence, though I don't think that Gregory realized this, since he used this quip to argue for an energy/information dichotomy. I have instead argued (most recently in my January FIS essay) that both the referential and normative properties of information are intimately entangled with the concept of physical work. </div><div><br></div><div>Also, in English parlance the phrase to "make a difference" is an idiom that means "to matter" or to be significant or of value. I believe that this double entendre was intended in order to implicate the normative and goal directed aspects of information. Explicating either the aboutness or the normative consequence in terms of "bits" therefore inevitably results in reductionistic oversimplication. Bits are a relevant measure of intrinsic logical properties of the communication medium, but of minimal value in assessing the extrinsic relational properties that are implicated in the larger concept of information. I think that measuring work (though in ways that are more complex than mere physical work) can lead to a more useful incorporation of the referential and normative properties that are implied by "information."</div><div><br></div><div>Another problem is introduced by the use of the concept of "meaning" in these discussions. The term ambiguously connotes both reference and significance, and while it is applicable to symbolic and linguistic information, it only metaphorically applies to iconic and indexical forms of communication. Thus we discern that a sneeze indicates (provides potential information about) an allergic response, but doesn't "mean" allergy or nasal irritation. Seeing the imprint of a person's face on a coin doesn't "mean" that person. I would not want to exclude these semiotic forms of conveying information from our consideration of the concept.</div><div><br></div><div>Clearly, we need to carefully distinguish the intrinsic logical properties of a signal medium (Shannon's usage) from information "about" something not intrinsic to that medium, from the "informative value" or normative / significant / useful consequence that is the point of interpreting something to be about something else.</div><div><br></div><div>To fail to make these distinctions and instead flatten our discussions to the Shannonian usage is to loose track of the challenge. Let me conclude by noting that this troublesome flattening of the meaning of "information" was recognized by Shannon and many others, in the formative years of the field. In the words of a major figure in the field:</div><div><br></div><div><i><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times">“I didn’t like the
term Information Theory. Claude didn’t like it either. You see, the term
‘information theory’ suggests that it is a theory about information – but it’s
not. It’s the transmission of information, not information. Lots of people just
didn’t understand this... I coined the term ‘mutual information’ to avoid such
nonsense: making the point that information is always about something. It is
information provided</span></i><i><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times"> by something, about something.</span></i><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times">”</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times"> </span><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times">[Interview with R.
Fano, 2001]</span>
<br><i><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times"> </span></i></div><div><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times">... and I would add "for something."</span></div><div><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13pt;font-family:Times">— Terry</span></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Joseph Brenner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear Terry,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I agree with the distinction you make between the
two types of properties indicated, but I wish you had stated your point
positively. I hope we are all not so lazy as not to be able to use
modifers such as 'meaningful' with information,as Loet suggests. If one does
not, does that mean that one will be in a position to establish a single
monolithic interpretation for information? In the exchange below, there is
thus</font><font face="Arial" size="2"> a faint perfume of reductionism that floats
around the focus on properties of informational entities without reference to
the necessary energetic processes of their production, transmission and
reception.</font> <font face="Arial" size="2">But your post was less than four
full lines . . .</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Best,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Joseph</font></div><span class="">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="deacon@berkeley.edu" href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">Terrence W.
DEACON</a> </div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="55mrcs@gmail.com" href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" target="_blank">Marcus
Abundis</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 26, 2015 9:17 PM</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of
QM</div></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div>
</span><span class=""><div dir="ltr">Dear Marcus,
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div>
<div>Thank you for this simple and absolutely essential intervention. Allowing
ourselves the freedom to use the same term—'information' which is the defining
term for this entire enterprise—for such different relationships as intrinsic
signal properties and extrinsic referential and normative properties is a recipe
for irrelevance. </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div>
<div>— Terry</div></div>
</span><div class="gmail_extra"><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT:1ex;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid">
<div lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dear
Marcus and colleagues, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Katherine
Hayles (1990, pp. 59f.) compared this discussion about the definition of
“information” with asking whether a glass is half empty or half full.
Shannon-type information is a measure of the variation or uncertainty, whereas
Bateson’s “difference which makes a difference” presumes a system of reference
for which the information can make a difference and thus be meaningful.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">In
my opinion, the advantage of measuring uncertainty in bits cannot be
underestimated, since the operationalization and the measurement provide
avenues to hypothesis testing and thus control of speculation (Theil, 1972).
However, the semantic confusion can also be solved by using the words
“uncertainty” or “probabilistic entropy” when Shannon-type information is
meant.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
note that “a difference which makes a difference” cannot so easily be
measured. </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings">J</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">
I agree that it is more precise to speak of “meaningful information” in that
case. The meaning has to be specified in the system of reference (e.g.,
physics and/or biology).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Loet<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">References:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hayles,
N. K. (1990). <i>Chaos Bound; Orderly Disorder in Contemporary Literature and
Science </i>Ithaca, etc.: Cornell University.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Theil,
H. (1972). <i>Statistical Decomposition Analysis</i>. Amsterdam/ London:
North-Holland.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
</span><div class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN:center" align="center"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<hr align="center" width="100%" size="3">
</span></div><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Loet
Leydesdorff <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Emeritus</span></i><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">
University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communication Research
(ASCoR)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><a title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">;
</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><a title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;COLOR:black;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Honorary
Professor, </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">SPRU, </span></a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;COLOR:black;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">University
of Sussex; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;COLOR:black;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Guest
Professor </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;COLOR:black;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;COLOR:black;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Beijing;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;COLOR:black;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Visiting
Professor, </span><a name="14e3e858efabb678_14e30efbc6a35609__GoBack"></a><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;COLOR:black;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">,
University of London; <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#44546a;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
</span><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus
Abundis<span class=""><br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 26, 2015 7:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] It-from-Bit
and information interpretation of QM<u></u><u></u></span></span></p><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in">Dear Andrei,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><u></u><u></u> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"> I would ask for
clarification on whether you speak of "information" in your examples as
something that has innate "meaning" or something that is innately
"meaningless" . . . which has been a core issue in earlier exchanges. If this
issue of "meaning" versus "meaningless" in the use of the term "information"
is not resolved (for the group?) it seems hard (to me) to have truly
meaningful exchanges . . . without having to put a "meaningful" or
"meaningless" qualifier in front of "information" every time it is
use.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><u></u><u></u> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in">Thanks.<br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="LINE-HEIGHT:13.5pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE:1pt;COLOR:#333333;FONT-FAMILY:'inherit','serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></td></tr>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'inherit','serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="VERTICAL-ALIGN:baseline"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:13.5pt;COLOR:#333333;FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Marcus
Abundis<u></u><u></u></span></b></p></div>
<div style="MARGIN-TOP:2.25pt;outline:0px">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="VERTICAL-ALIGN:baseline"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Helvetica','sans-serif'"><a href="http://about.me/marcus.abundis" target="_blank">about.me/marcus.abundis</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></td></tr>
<tr style="outline:0px">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND:#c5d0e0;VERTICAL-ALIGN:baseline;TEXT-ALIGN:right" align="right"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'inherit','serif'"><img height="4" alt="http://d13pix9kaak6wt.cloudfront.net/signature/colorbar.png" src="cid:FCC4E016FF0F40F9AD6C21AA4681E042@PCdeJoseph" width="88" border="0"></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'inherit','serif'"><u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="VERTICAL-ALIGN:baseline;LINE-HEIGHT:0%"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10.5pt;COLOR:#333333;FONT-FAMILY:'inherit','serif'">
<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></td></tr>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><u></u><u></u> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></div></div><span class=""><br>_______________________________________________<br>Fis
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br><br></span></blockquote></div><span class=""><br><br clear="all">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><br></div>--
<br>
<div>Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of
California, Berkeley</div></span></div>
<p>
</p><hr><span class="">
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing
list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br></span><p></p></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley</div>
</div>