<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
span.BalloonTextChar
{font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"}
p.a, li.a, div.a
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
span.a0
{font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"}
span.EmailStyle21
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#44546A}
span.EmailStyle22
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
span.EmailStyle23
{font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
span.EmailStyle24
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#44546A}
.MsoChpDefault
{font-size:10.0pt}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.WordSection1
{}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>Sorry Loet, but I just don't see the need for an observer. I do think the difference must be by something to something (perhaps the same thing) but Koichiro's formulation implies this. Again, I warn against unneeded complication. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-size:9px; color:#575757">Sent from Samsung Mobile</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original message --------<br>
From: Loet Leydesdorff <br>
Date:27/06/2015 10:00 (GMT+02:00) <br>
To: 'Koichiro Matsuno' ,John Collier ,'fis' <br>
Subject: RE: [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of QM <br>
<br>
<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Koichiro: “In order to make them decidable or meaningful, some qualifier must definitely be needed. A popular example of such a qualifier is a subjective observer.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">“A difference that makes a difference” for a qualifier, thus requires specification of:
</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A">The first difference;
</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A">The second difference;
</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span style="">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A">The qualifier (e.g., the observer).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A">The first difference can be measured using Shannon-type information, since a probability distribution can be considered as a set of (first-order) differences.
Brillouin tried to specify the second difference as a </span><b>Δ</b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A">H.
</span><b>Δ</b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">H can also be negative (“negentropy”). But how does one proceed to the measurement?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Best,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Loet</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Loet Leydesdorff
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Emeritus</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">;
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Honorary Professor,
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU,
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">University of Sussex;
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Guest Professor
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC,
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Beijing;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Visiting Professor,
</span><a name="_GoBack"></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">,
University of London; </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#44546A"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Koichiro Matsuno<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 27, 2015 9:04 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'John Collier'; 'fis'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of QM</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">At 4:00 AM 06/27/2015, John Collier wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">I also see no reason that Bateson’s difference that makes a difference needs to involve meaning at either end.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">[KM] Right. The phrase saying “a difference that makes a difference” must be a prototypical example of second-order logic in that
the difference appearing both in the subject and predicate can accept quantification. Most statements framed in second-order logic are not decidable. In order to make them decidable or meaningful, some qualifier must definitely be needed. A popular example
of such a qualifier is a subjective observer. However, the point is that the subjective observer is not limited to Alice or Bob in the QBist parlance.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Koichiro</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>