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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I believe that information in itself must be interpreted, and is not, therefore intrinsically meaningful. The addition requires, I think, semiotics. Without
that there are mere mechanical relations, and at best codes that translate one domain to another without understanding or integration required. I also see no reason that Bateson’s difference that makes a difference needs to involve meaning at either end. He
did not add makes a difference “to something about something”. He just talked about making a difference. Best not to over-interpret.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think that to ignore this distinction does a great disservice to information theory by glossing over a problem that any information processing system needs
to deal with if it is to achieve meaning.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Loet Leydesdorff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> June 26, 2015 7:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Marcus Abundis'; 'fis'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of QM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">Dear Marcus and colleagues,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">Katherine Hayles (1990, pp. 59f.) compared this discussion about the definition of “information” with asking whether a glass is half empty or half
full. Shannon-type information is a measure of the variation or uncertainty, whereas Bateson’s “difference which makes a difference” presumes a system of reference for which the information can make a difference and thus be meaningful.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">In my opinion, the advantage of measuring uncertainty in bits cannot be underestimated, since the operationalization and the measurement provide
avenues to hypothesis testing and thus control of speculation (Theil, 1972). However, the semantic confusion can also be solved by using the words “uncertainty” or “probabilistic entropy” when Shannon-type information is meant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">I note that “a difference which makes a difference” cannot so easily be measured.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A">J</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"> I agree that it is more precise to speak of “meaningful information”
in that case. The meaning has to be specified in the system of reference (e.g., physics and/or biology).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">References:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">Hayles, N. K. (1990).
<i>Chaos Bound; Orderly Disorder in Contemporary Literature and Science </i>Ithaca, etc.: Cornell University.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A">Theil, H. (1972).
<i>Statistical Decomposition Analysis</i>. Amsterdam/ London: North-Holland.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Loet Leydesdorff
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Emeritus</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">;
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Honorary Professor,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU,
</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">University of Sussex;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Guest Professor
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC,
</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Beijing;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Visiting Professor,
</span><a name="_GoBack"></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">,
University of London; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Abundis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 26, 2015 7:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of QM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Andrei,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> I would ask for clarification on whether you speak of "information" in your examples as something that has innate "meaning" or something that is innately "meaningless" . . . which has been
a core issue in earlier exchanges. If this issue of "meaning" versus "meaningless" in the use of the term "information" is not resolved (for the group?) it seems hard (to me) to have truly meaningful exchanges . . . without having to put a "meaningful" or
"meaningless" qualifier in front of "information" every time it is use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks.<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="vertical-align:baseline"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">Marcus Abundis<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">about.me/marcus.abundis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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